IRC log started Thu May 20 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0520 -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [12:04am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] !koontz.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT varley.openprojects.net 8001 from aphzen !koontz.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT varley.openprojects.net 8005 from aphzen -:- maela [tool@ppp5139.interbook.net] has joined #Tunes hola -:- SignOff maela: #TUNES (Read error to maela[ppp5139.interbook.net]: EOF from client) 03:30am -:- Tripode [que@193.145.62.59] has joined #Tunes -:- Tripode is now known as Truskis -:- Truskis [que@193.145.62.59] has left #Tunes [] -:- Truskis [que@193.145.62.59] has joined #Tunes -:- Truskis [que@193.145.62.59] has left #Tunes [] -:- Truskis [que@193.145.62.59] has joined #Tunes -:- Popper [ldelana@ultra.science.unitn.it] has joined #Tunes -:- Truskis [que@193.145.62.59] has left #Tunes [] -:- SignOff Popper: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Popper[ultra.science.unitn.it]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209.122.196.120] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250093.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250093.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: ) >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250093.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 927216521 957944 from #tunes >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250093.clarityconnect.net] requested VERSION from TUNES >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250093.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 927217766 370957 from #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) -:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- Tril_ [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209.122.220.11] has joined #tunes -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250111.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- Tril_ is now known as Tril re atg, tcn hey tril om -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- Tril_ [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES -:- Tril_ is now known as Tril y0 01:30pm hey, should I use '/', '.', or ':' as the path separator? in what -:- oswaldo [oceballo@195.235.126.164] has joined #Tunes hi que tal, oswaldo hello hola bien donde estan abi is a bot english or spanish es canale en engles por favor o.k no prob Ingles tunes is a project to create an integrated computing system where r u ? i was trying the mirc for the first time between Seattle WA USA and Vancouver BC Canada -:- oswaldo [oceballo@195.235.126.164] has left #Tunes [] I like virc better for windows oh yeah we might as well treat the object hierarchy like a filesystem tree in Unix, eh? is the root object umm / is the root object :) forgot about / in irc :) 01:40pm The way it is now, if you type a command in the debugger, it only searches under /kernel. In forth, it only searches under /forth hierarchy? hierarchy? hierarchy is evil good, abi somebody said good was the thing that you favor evil is my sour flavor no, abi heh abi, what r u? i haven't a clue, tcn abi, what are you? i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot Tril: where were we? i haven't a clue, tcn heheh I'm wondering why you are using a hierarchy. 01:50pm what else would I use? use the correct TUNES topology. An n-space. a web? easier said than done Each object is unique, and can be connected arbitrarily to any other. Hierarchies are limiting, and cause inflexibility. the important thing is, how would you identify an object, when you're typing at the console? I don't even know what your "objects" are, so this argument is moot oh they're machine code routines, strings, integers, etc.. and other stuff other stuff is useless as a mofo for me to implement a heterarchy wouldn't be too hard.. just change 'search' from a tree search to a depth-first search right now, I could create a loop, but bad things would happen if I tried to search it :) stack overflow :) heterarchy? heterarchy, web, n-space, whatever you call it om that's what an n-space is, right? i actually dont know much about topology although I'm assuming you know what i mean yeah :) like in GEB I need help figuring out how to link os. ;( whatever it is, it's the most expressive organization, i.e. no restrictions. yeah AlonzoTG: xcom.txt * tcn/#tunes seconds tril http://cvs.tunes.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/retro/kernel/xcom.asm 02:00pm so tril, would "filenames" in this non-heirarchical system look the same? as in unix well in my system there are no files. objects, then instead information is stored entirely in location Well think of a number as a location along the Y axis so an "object" has more than one "path" to it, and no path is better than another (i.e none is more real than another) but there is no information "inside" the object, all the information is "about" the object, stored as paths to it. uhhhhh the object consists of, solely, a set of paths which are related to one another by sharing the same object. that's just my bizarre approach it's similar to Arrow, though sounds like the arrow system they're both like that because they're "intensional" except you have objects which are empty... arrow has only arrows so how do I store the number 42, in your system? how do I store the string "hello world" ? I would discourage such practice :) storing a number implies procedural programming, which is a taboo idea: universal removable storage device system. ok, s/store/represent/ put the filesystem driver on the disk... that is loaded when it is inserted. :) numbers are hard, since there are infinitely many, so any constraints relating to numbers can only be approximated on finite memory atg: that's called a boot sector :) not quite.. same idea though not platform independant. umm 02:10pm how do you read the driver off the disk if you haven't loaded the driver for the disk yet? catch 22? hey tril.. \ hey hoy, Tril not a problem: OS initializes drive has anyone written a compiler or interpreter for intensional programming? The media can now be accessed. the MS research people have one. does it do anything? sure, but they won't let anyone see it afaik Then the first few allocation units are read. the metadata is analyzed and the drivers for the filesystem and object managment structures are loaded from the disk. :) I'm skeptical (tril) I'm not even sure intensional is the right term I don't see how to get from this "intensional representation" to 1's and 0's oh well it's tough. that's why you start at the high level, not low level :) and that's kind of what Fare is working on with his formal notion of implementations. I don't care how "elegant" this system is, if it's big & slow. wouldn't incomp1337ness be a problem? lamer ATG or out of comp 'leet-ness atg incompleteness isnt a problem, it just means when you ask your computer a question, it doesnt know if it will ever finish hmmz which is true of solving any problem, even without a computer it goes into an endless loop.. so you kill that task tcn that is not true it's not a loop. searching infinite space is not a loop :) 02:20pm a computer is finite nah finite state machine you're silly if you think so even if it has 2^^^^3242 states anyways... does a heterarchy have a root? oh I guess you start at the current node hmm I'm seeing some serious problems with a non-heirarchical organization you can have one root or multiple roots err, no root tcn it's not a serious problem it's an accurate model of the universe but it doesn't seem useful for system organization ok we now have an XCOM project tcn: how so? you can have hierarchies inside it, you just aren't limited by them. hmm.. so I could tag a node as 'the top of a hierarchy'.. in the current situation, everything would be hierarchical, though. or you can tag the entire group of nodes as "limited by the structure of a hierarchy" err, a view on a group of nodes you can still look at them outside that view, without the restriction. I'm not gonna screw with non-hierarchical stuff right now what's this about an XCOM project? tcn did you look at the UniOS project layout ? A lot of the dirs appeared in more than one sub-tree. Sym-links are nice but how do you say none of the locations is official? tcn you'll see when you get my mail i sent to tunes-lll ok next year :) 02:30pm got somethign from Core no sense making the mail deliver faster than you can read it.. hmmmmmm... hmm lll web archive isnt updating 02:40pm or, maybe it is, and no posts this month until today? are you interested in talking about a _practical_ way to implement this non-hierarchy? no posts this month tcn: It should be implemented impractically, first. Then we can work inside the system to find a practical way ok :) not interested I should see if Fare has any ideas practical = fast on your computer? fast and intuitive what is this? what are u tryin to doL ? I think tcn has some things he hasnt explained yet :) atg: think of it as a non-hierarchical FS or expects us to read the Retro source to find out :) hehe i need to rite some source. :| this isn't in there :) atg write an xcom loader for DOS realmode haha tcn we're not even talking about the same thing.. hang on.. brb -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (phone call) 02:50pm * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250089.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250089.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) -:- HickServ [Algernon@209.68.229.57] has joined #tunes hi que tal, HickServ muy bien y tu? om y0 eeek I hate algernon :( in jr highschool I was called Charley Gordon :((( um :( 03:50pm so tell me about your linker al I don't have one :((((( but the one you want to make I'm open to suggestions. :| well tell me about the damn thing Well I can tell you what it needs to do... it is imbedded in the program loader... It reads an objeckt off the disk then links it with the common librariez.... then it will need to pass information about the program to the OS so that it can set up its entry points for the uzer.... oh i thought you had a proogramming error well I don't know how to code it. :( -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (GPF!!! bback in a few hours...) 04:00pm -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-030.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-030.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes <_QZ> Tril: can ncftp do a recursive send? 05:00pm -:- mathias [math@france.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se] has joined #tunes -:- mathias [math@france.hemmet.s-hem.chalmers.se] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216.164.231.72] has joined #tunes -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Please welcome huxley.opirc.nu (melbourne.au.opirc.nu), our newest server! -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh8-port146.snet.net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes billyboof with an iron mace whats up al BOOF!!! y0 Can your AI design me a girlfriend yet? -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250101.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes ello! hey what's up, tcn u beat abi :) 07:20pm oops.. I broke my forth compiler <_QZ> tcn: i have begun to transfer my info to bespin cool figure out how to do a recursive send? <_QZ> nope logon to bespin and do a recursive get? :) <_QZ> cant <_QZ> p0wer doesnt have ftp or http where are you putting the files? <_QZ> ~qz/borg.qzx.com * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 19 hrs 51 min 26 secs chmod o+r ~qz hey tril hi tcn he doesnt need to change any perms for u to get in right now just don't try to ls in ~qz <_QZ> u should be able to read it now I know topick? make it owned by qz.tunes, mode 664 guess he doesnt want you to :) (Hint: try "locate qz" to see all his files) qz: can u give me any linking tipz? locate rules :) atg why dont u ever respond when I mention xcom? xcom may be perfect. maybe i should read the irc log for last time we talked about it but I need a lxnker... 07:30pm the xcom loader is a linker. <_QZ> AlonzoTG: i use a different kind of linker tom, sam, and core are all writing xcom loaders QZ should too :) who's sam? kc5tja dolphin guy oh yeah <_QZ> why should i support xcom? so you can run the same programs as retro, clementine, dolphin, etc.. if you ask that, then never mind so you can use GGI for graphics support <_QZ> u forget that brix isnt like retro, dolphin or clementine <_QZ> it doenst 'run' programs i dont think you have to XCOM modules have entries, those could correspond to brix actions <_QZ> brix is like a bunch of dll's but u cant add functions to the dll's at any time and the functions in the dll's are all combined into one huge app that does everything that's kinda like the other os's and how much do you understand xcom? <_QZ> i have read the xcom specs I can't even get at that Xcom spcecks atg I mailed em to you once =\ oh well just need a linker... <_QZ> i dont see what makes xcom any different than any of microsofts .exe formats or elf <_QZ> see xcom suports segments and brix dont qz an xcom module has more than one entry point 07:40pm oooh nice!@!!! the entry points together are the interface to that module <_QZ> hmm <_QZ> how does it store the entry points i dont know details, just that they are relocatable they are called by name and module core said he put some XCOM docs on the web <_QZ> what is relocatable? the objects? dont ask me <_QZ> what purpose does storing byte order in xcom serve? the code only runs on the cpu that is was compiled for nooo an xcom module can include code for more than one cpu the same module has the same interface across cpus <_QZ> that is what i dont agree with well, i could be wrong. yer right <_QZ> i want all the code to distributed as bytecode and compiled on the target platform heheh qz nothing says an xcom cant contain bytecode <_QZ> i dont want some xcom module in brix x86 that has code in it for a ppc I think that's for distribution purposes most of the code would be platform-independent, with a few optimized routines for x86, ppc, etc.. besides, nobody's saying you should adopt XCOM as your native object format.. it's just an interchange format 07:50pm -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) <_QZ> how can i exchange code that was written for retro? all the calls to retro stuff would be as XCOM entries to a retro module, maybe uhh but i dunno <_QZ> huh? tcn can answer :) <_QZ> heh the XCOM provides a list of object names and addresses, and linking infomation it can also provide interface info, but I haven't gotten that far i'm still doing low-level interfacing the way we usually do in asm 08:00pm hm. got mail arrow smalltalk code is out I don't think I'm on tunes-lll still haven't gotten anything from it.. no tcn on tunes-lll, yup I was on it :) wonder what happened hey, is the list public? yes, quite of addresses, that is.. but if someone unsubbed you it should have sent you a note is there an easy way to find out which ml's I'm on? oh yeah, I need to update my e-mail address on all the lists... tcn "who listname" lists members of a list. "which" lists what lists you are on. put that in the body of a message? you can also use grep on bespin yer on tunes, tunes-specs, and unios atg i can do that for you I have a new e-mail address ahh, time to read the archives :) i am alangrimes@starpower.net Alonzo: changed tcn ok, I just reindexed the lll archive thanks! :))) sigh.... atg: only on tunes.org lists, you'll still have to change it on other servers :) now back to my prototype... hmmz... I don't control the whole net (yet) I am taking an AWESOME course in Discrete Math... hey, I disappeared from the unios list! did not also reading GEB :) 08:10pm tcn you are subscribed under tcn@tunes.org to all the lists kool book Tril: what dir is this in? /var/lib/majordomo/lists/ where were you looking? /serv/majordom/lists is junk hehe yeah maybe someday I should delete files that are not used anymore :) qz give up on that netrek server? what language do you think I should use for my prototype? the book recomends a forth generation language for prototypes... ML okays... I'll look into it. :) is a suggestion, if you have to learn a whole language anyways is forth a fourth generation language? supposedly, yes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) 08:20pm hey, cybernethics looks interesting 08:30pm hey, os-ideas looks dead hehe.. I just looked there I didn't have to look. I'm subscribed 08:40pm and os-help was just a mirror of that >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250101.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 927258277 433227 from #tunes 08:50pm anyone know unix programming? I'm getting zombie processes, is that because I need to waitpid() on all my child processes to clean them up? not sure what language? c never used child procs.. sorry :( 09:00pm our assignment was basically to write a new shell all it has to do is process the | character, but it has to support any number of them when are you done? with classes 2 weeks June 7-11 is finals week does FHC have finals? No, but in a fairhaven concentration you have to take a lot of classes on the regular campus. You just get to pick which ones, and integrate them to your area of study fairhaven doesnt have tests at all. Presentations, and papers yes do they rush you there? self evaluations at the end not as much so how many fhc and non-fhc courses did you hafta take? I might go there for my BS how many .. lesse.. you need 60 credits of non-fhc classes for a concentration. IIRC out of 120? hmm transfer students need 60. I had 90 credits from my transfer degree 09:10pm or something. I can tell you for sure when I go home ok program done. now I have to port it to win32 real quick :( haha is this for fhc or wwu? this program fairhaven doesn't have any computer classes. in fact a lot of people there believe technology is unethical. also a lot of them are prejudiceed against Christians , I hear I have not had any problems with either ,but I dont go around preaching technology or Christianity, either in other words the anti-tech or anti-xian is just what i heard, not from experience. I find everyone to be very nice i'm neutral on christianity :) A lot of negativity gets exaggerated, because anyone can post anonymous posters on the walls in the fairhaven hallways. right we've had some issues about particularly nasty things people have put up any issues about playing quake or halflife? :) <_QZ> tcn: u get halflife yet? qz: hmm.. I know someone who has it tcn you cant play games at any of the labs at wwu.. too many people need to use them for work. But if you live in a dorm with ethernet.. if he ever gets his cd back :) we had 1 guy giving us crap for playing games in the evening, when nobody was doing any work. asshole.. heh last year the computer admins found out students were playing quake, when the admins went to play a game and saw another server on the lan :) remind me to leave at 9:45 or I miss the last bus home 09:20pm that's 12:45 your time in 25 minutes sure thingif I don't fall asleep I noticed you didnt subscribe to xcom yet did you read the lll archive? yeah I'm on xcom.. wtf? oh you did, just a few min ago ok, maybe an hour ago :) hehe what seemed like a minute ago.. damn, I screwed up all kinds of stuff in retro changing string formats was it bad for me to just do an update? no, I haven't committed the screwed up stuff I was about to try retro in bochs, since I'll never finish this Win32 port in 20 min wont even try heh last assignment was Win32 only, and I completely gave up, my program didn't even work. yeah, it works in bochs.. give it a shot