IRC log started Wed Sep  1 00:00:00 1999
<Zhivago> I don't remember the _QZ nick, but I remember a liar nick
<liar> no i just changed to this nick a few weeks ago
<Zhivago> different person then
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0901
<liar> what do u need the boot code to do?
<Zhivago> liar: how old is the retro cvs?
<Zhivago> liar: hmm, oh, just load an image, and bounce to pmode
<Zhivago> liar: but preferably having itself as part of that image
<Zhivago> liar: basically a prelude
<liar> i am making brix but its boot loader loads the code to go into pmode
<Zhivago> liar: for me it is imporatnt that the boot-code is part of the os image
<Zhivago> liar: so the entire thing forms one contigious image
<liar> why?
<Zhivago> liar: well, this is a reflective system based around a persistent virtual memory system
<liar> so is brix
<Zhivago> liar: its important to me to have the bootcode as part of this pvm layer, so that this system can rewrite the bootcode sanely
<Zhivago> see if a month ago is saner :)
<liar> so yer stuffing yer entire system into a single file?
<Zhivago> liar: yes
<Zhivago> liar: this also makes it easy to run it as an elf executable under linux as well
<liar> why not make a persistent object store?
<Zhivago> liar: so all that should need to change is the pre/post-lude and the drivers to move between elf and native
<Zhivago> liar: that file is the persisteent store
<liar> not if everything has to flow together
<liar> u need to have some kind of structure inside the file to organize objects
<liar> a filesystem in a file
<Zhivago> this is persistent at the byte-level
<Zhivago> those structures are at the memory-management level
<liar> doesnt matter if that file is a file in another filesystem of if its the entire drive
<Zhivago> except for the added complexity
<Zhivago> and the discontinuity
<Zhivago> the pvm is the file-system effectively
<Zhivago> and since I'm working at the page/block level its good to avoid the extra issues of another fs
12:10am
<Zhivago> liar: do you know how long retro has been broken for?
<liar> if the dosimage works then its no longer broken
<liar> it might be that tom has started converting it to handle modules
<Zhivago> dosimage works, but boot doesn't, it expects modules which aren't there
<Zhivago> liar: I'm just after a contigious image form which works, then I can test, and pare it down
<liar> before he was compiling everything into a single image but now he is gonna break it up into modules
<liar> so the boot code will load/run each module
<Zhivago> liar: yeah, its the original I'm after then, which might explain why boot has been abandoned
<liar> he should have old version on the page
<Zhivago> hmm, two months back is looking good
<liar> oh its just compiled binaries
<liar> email him and ask if he has an old copy
<Zhivago> I think I have found what I want from the two-months-ago cvs set
<Zhivago> ahh, ths looks perfect
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<liar> where did u find those?
<Zhivago> do you know what tom's attitude toward working with code he's developed is?
<Zhivago> oh, I just asked cvs to give me an old set
<Zhivago> checkout -D "2 months ago" retro
<liar> heh ok
<liar> he doesnt care that u use his code to my knowledge
<liar> just drop him an email
<liar> well im off to bed, cya
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12:20am
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!asimov.openprojects.net!! Received :irc.linux.com SERVER hogan.openprojects.net from irc.linux.com !?!
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<MaxD> hi tuners
03:20am
<Fare> lo
<MaxD> Fare, do you have problems with the paper of Wegner yet?
<Fare> have printed it
<Fare> no time to read it yet
<MaxD> ok, I have interested especially to his assertions on the scarce utility of the proofs of correctness
03:30am
<MaxD> (sorry for the latency, I have trouble with English)
<MaxD> I think that the proofs of correctness could have an important role in computer science still
<MaxD> even if we embrace the empirical point of view, the proofs of correctness there could point out if the model of system that we are building is correct, consistent as regards some criterion
03:40am
<MaxD> Naturally the hard part is verify that the model supports the "reality"
<MaxD> If the formal models are not useful, in whatever scientific discipline would have eliminated them
<MaxD> ... but we know that it is not in this way
03:50am
<MaxD> (probably this is only a delirium of an ignorant person ... :o)
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04:00am
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<MAxD> damnde telephone line
<MAxD> damned
<MAxD> Does anybody know the state of Brian's papers on arrow system?
04:10am
<Fare> I think pw exaggerates in the opposite direction
<MAxD> yes
<MAxD> There are fanatics of the formalism ...
<Fare> there are a few; but most specialists are not fanatics -- they know perfectly well the limits of their formalism
<MAxD> but doesn't this mean that we could not become a good use of the formalization (cum grano salis in latin?)
<MAxD> well, we agree :-)
04:20am
<Fare> of course, formalization IS useful
<Fare> actually, a computer can but formalize -- it's a formal machine!
<Fare> so formalization is the BEST we can do with a computer
<MAxD> YES!
<MAxD> we aren't magician
<MAxD> (mmmhh .. sometimes seem to be so ... :-)
<MAxD> too many times we lose the control of these machines
<MAxD> superfluous complexification (??)
04:30am
<MAxD> do you know any written of Edgar Morin?
<MAxD> he distinguishes between complexity...
<MAxD> .. and complication
<MAxD> a "complicated" system is not necessary a "complex" system (according to his definitions)
<MAxD> actual computing system seem to me more complicated than complex
04:40am
<MAxD> well, I'm going to lunch, see you later
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05:10am
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<Crimson> hello...
06:30am
<Fare> ole
<Crimson> Solaris on SparscStation 4's is slow... =(
<Crimson> I bought a Nokia 6110 yesterday btw... =)
<Fare> what's a Nokia 6110?
<Fare> portable phone with integrated palmtop?
06:50am
<Crimson> It's a cellphone...
<Crimson> No palmtop.
<Crimson> But is has a calendar.
<Fare> so why announce it here?
07:00am
<Plundis> why not?
07:10am
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<Fare> I don't wear socks.
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<Fare> fch!
<hcf> eraf!
<hcf> sup?
08:00am
<Fare> pus!
<hcf> that all u got to say?
08:10am
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<Downix> morning
03:00pm
<eihrul> afternoon
<Downix> or evening, who cares?
<eihrul> it's not exactly morning here though
<Downix> nor is it morning here, but it's morning somewhere
<eihrul> are you sure about that?
<Downix> yup
<Downix> mid-asia to be exact
<eihrul> i pity mid-asia
<Downix> I don't
<eihrul> morning is a bad thing
<Downix> nah, it's jusyt a time of being
<eihrul> sure... but there are 'evil' things associated with morning
<Downix> oh?
<eihrul> school, daylight, morning television, etc
<Downix> so?
<eihrul> so?
03:10pm
<Downix> nothing wrong with those
<eihrul> if you're not being forced through/into them
<Downix> done that, it wasn't that bad
<eihrul> gah
<Downix> better than the alternative
<eihrul> perhaps, but seeing ad bad is relative
<eihrul> something can be better but still bad
<Downix> yup
<Downix> but we're on a deep philosophical debate here that can never be solved escept by just saying "ah, that's life"
<eihrul> that is not life...
<eihrul> it's American life as far as i know
<Downix> no, but the debate will turn to life
<eihrul> but i cannot speak for life in general
<Downix> ok
03:20pm
<Downix> so eih, what else is new?
<eihrul> jus working on mk
<Downix> mk?
<Downix> mortal kombat?
<eihrul> microkernel
<Downix> ok, which one?  MACH?  L4?
<eihrul> mine
<Downix> oh?  Open sourced or closed?
<eihrul> open once i finish
<Downix> ok
<Downix> what does it have over other mk's?
<eihrul> not much... it's more of a my-first-mircokernel project than anything revolutionary
<Downix> ok
<Downix> well, we need those too ya know
<eihrul> i'm just trying to make a small but reasonably full featured microkernel
* Downix/#tunes is involved in an open-sourced CPU himself
* Downix/#tunes nods
<eihrul> (with the exception of support for swappage to disk)
<Downix> what CPU are you using?
<eihrul> x86 is all i have
<Downix> ok
<eihrul> if i had a mips... :)
* Downix/#tunes offers you a 68k
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> Well, MIPS maybe, I need to get an EEPROM burner
<Downix> and a boot ROM now that I think about it
* Downix/#tunes has one, kinda, but needs to remove the useless sections of the code
<eihrul> dern... can't remember what i was going to add to my thread structure
<Downix> ok
<eihrul> i know i though something up during school... but can't remember what now
<Downix> dang
<eihrul> i wrote it down though i think
<Downix> ok
03:30pm
<eihrul> ah... messaging security
<Downix> nice
<eihrul> was to put restrictions on which threads a thread can communicate with just in case someone wants to force threads to communicate with a user level "kernel"
<Downix> ok
03:40pm
<eihrul> y tu?
03:50pm
<Downix> right now researching ALU alg's
<Downix> trying to figure out how to speed up square root functions
<eihrul> cheat... use lookup table
<Downix> take up more logic
<Downix> also lookup tables cannot handle all variables
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<Downix> hey eih
<eihrul> ISP boot
<Downix> ok
<eihrul> you say 'ok' much
<Downix> I do?
<Downix> ok
<Downix> 8)
<Downix> hold on
<Downix> server is about to reboot
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04:00pm
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<Downix> ok
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04:10pm
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<liar> lar1: get my email?
<lar1> liar:  Yes, thank you very much!!
<liar> get linux working?
<lar1> kinda
<lar1> I need some gnome and Bochs help
<liar> well dont use the gnome pager, gmc, or slashapp and u will save alot of memory
<liar> to get rid of gmc u need to uninstall it
<liar> thats about all i can help u with on gnome
<lar1> Which one is gmc?
<liar> gmc is what makes the icons on the desktop and the windows like explorer windows
<lar1> Ok, I don't think I have that installed.
<liar> also dont use gnome terminals, get rxvt or something else
<liar> rxvt will use less than 1meg per terminal while gnome terms use 5-6meg
<lar1> My big problem is (gnome+E) any non gnome app gets its window miscolored, its all white where it should be grey.  And text in most all apps where it should be black turns white.  Almost like it is trying to refresh it but never does
<lar1> Yes, I perfer rxvt
<lar1> That gnome termanal is crap
<liar> cant help ya there
<liar> oh btw im writing a gtk frontend for bochs and hopefully eihrul is helping me :)
<lar1> Ooooooo
<lar1> :) :) :)
<lar1> I'll help!! I'll help!!
<liar> u know alot of C?
<lar1> Yes, but I have never done for Linux or GTK before
<lar1> I have done lots in DOS and a little in windows
<liar> heh
<liar> well i almost have the gtk part done
05:20pm
<lar1> It can't be _that_ different... and I got a good Linux Programming book :)
<liar> gtk just requires setting up widgets for the gui and hooking callback functions to them
<lar1> Now you just need to parse Bochs output?
<liar> yup
<lar1> That I am pretty sure I could do
<liar> the callback functions dont have any gtk in them so they are like any other C function. i jsut need to make them parse the output
<lar1> At least help
<liar> u can try to open a pipe to bochs and r/w to it
<lar1> bochs > file.blah?
<liar> hold on
<lar1> ok
<eihrul> liar: *hopefully*
<lar1> eihrul: :)
* lar1/#tunes pulls Linux Programming from shelf and opens it
<eihrul> whenever i get signifigant time :)
<eihrul> which should be this weekend (3 dayer)
* lar1/#tunes really does want to help
<lar1> Can you just do bochs | yerProgram?
<eihrul> i already showed the dude how to do real pipes
<eihrul> resend
<lar1> What is that file?  I am in windows...
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<lar1> Hey liar, do you like Powerman 5000?
<liar> what is it?
05:30pm
<lar1> A band
<hcf> whose video, when worlds collide has been played on 
<lar1> Made the song "When worlds collide
<hcf> mtv's 120mins
<liar> dont know if ive heard em
<hcf> the lead singer is rob zombie's brother
<lar1> hcf:  Really?  Cool!  He don't look like rob zombie...
<hcf> lar1: thats for sure
<lar1> They are cool, I'm listening to them now
<lar1> Is Shell scripting a good skill to have or can I just skip to the meat of my Linux Programming book?
<liar> its goot to have
<liar> good
<lar1> But I can skip it for now, or that isn't a good idea
05:40pm
<eihrul> lar1: can pick up shell scripting 'long the way... 
<lar1> eithrul:  Like learn through man pages when I need it?
<eihrul> the 'help' command in bash pretty much tells you everything you need
<eihrul> and aside from that, ripping/reading the shell scripts that come with your distro helps as well
<lar1> So I'll just skip to the real C sutff in here... I have limited time cause of school
<lar1> But I compensate by staying up till 2'
<lar1> :)
<eihrul> that'll work just fine...
05:50pm
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<liar> hmm
<liar> the gtk tutorial is so helpful 
<lar1> I sense sarcasm?
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<liar> it tells howto create frames, that line box around widgets, but it doesnt tell howto add widgets to them
<lar1> Hehe
<lar1> Theres a winner!
06:00pm
<liar> OK!, figured it out
<liar> ok i got the gui for the main window laid out, now to clean it up 
06:10pm
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<lar1> Very cool
<liar> lar1: u can compile this and see what it will look like
<lar1> Ok
<lar1> I'll do it tonight when I boot into linux
<liar> the quit button is the only thing with a callback function hooked to it
<lar1> ok
<liar> bbiaf
<lar1> ok
<lar1> Be onlater tonight?
<lar1> Oh... nevermind
<lar1> wrong acro ;)
06:20pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0902
IRC log ended Thu Sep  2 00:00:02 1999