IRC log started Tue Sep 28 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0928
12:10am
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<water> anyone here?
01:10am
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<water> hello smokie
<smokie> hoy
<smokie> anything gnew?
<water> well, i've been working on my arrow stuff
<water> and i want tunes to get back to work
<water> the group, that is
02:20am
<water> and you?
<smokie> i was doing some gui design -- completely not os related :)
<water> what sort of gui design?
<water> (yes, it's related)
<water> (especially for tunes)
<smokie> i'm trying to build a platform and display independent gui framework, which should allow for both a flexible and a fast gui
<smokie> it's implemented it in C++
<water> so the implementation is what you're designing
<water> eek
<water> display and platform independence in c++? have fun
<smokie> yes. :) I found out on altavista.com that 'gui design' generally means some artistic effort related to placing buttons on a screen :)
<water> well, that's for the average idiot
<smokie> do you have something against c++ ? (a lot of people seem to)
<water> i definitely do
<water> ever tried another oo language?
<smokie> Is that from an OS designers perspective, or just allround?
<water> (not java, i mean)
<water> it's more of a philosophical stance. it's a waste of your time
<water> literally
<smokie> I have tried some other languages, but never did enough to really understand them.. Some experimenting with Dylan, Sather, smalltalk and java
<water> i use smalltalk, mostly. it's not great, but at least i can program without worrying about complexity of code
<smokie> would you like to elaborate a bit on the drawbacks of c++ ?
<water> actually, it's best feature is that the squeak project supports it on many oses
<water> drawbacks? well, if you ever want to be able to program dynamically and safely, then c++ is terrible
<smokie> A very important goal for me is high execution speed for the gui.. The applications I want to build should run on a 486 and a p100 (those are my only machines)
<water> i hate tracking down c++ bugs that have nothing to do with "what i want my code to do"
<water> smokie: tried ggi?
<smokie> Yes, I've been using it for some time
<water> what's wrong with that? (i have no experience with it)
<smokie> However I have to support X natively too, because at university libggi is not installed, and my quota does not allow for it :(
<water> bleh. i don't envy you, then
02:30am
<smokie> I assume you are more into OS design than gui ?
<water> i want tunes or arrow or nothing
<smokie> i was a bit scared about the speed implications of tunes :)
<water> i realized a few years ago that it was the only reason that i ever wanted to use or program a computer
<water> bs
<water> there should be no speed implications
<water> btw, self is very close in speed to c++ code
<smokie> i'm just paranoid, i know there shouldn't be any problems with speed..
<smokie> it's that some new standard design issues involve allocating as much memory as is useful for the programmer, not for the actual user
<water> "new standard design issues"?
<smokie> hum :)
<smokie> i should be somewhat more careful in what i say
<water> i'm not offended, just confused
<smokie> (start-excursion the GNU project, for example, advises to allocate more memory instead of performing weird 'hacks' -- in order to keep the code clean..)
<water> oh
<smokie> and my impression of the tunes project was that it was focussing on 'clean' programming
<water> strange
<smokie> is it my personal misconception of the tunes project ?
<smokie> (could well be, i still don't understand the project well)
<water> well, cleanness is always good when you can get it
<water> tunes wants clean code everywhere
<smokie> ah then i'm not mistaken :)
<smokie> now comes my point :)
<water> but we want it in high-performance areas, too
<smokie> 'when you can get it' can mean 2 things: 1 for the guy with the new P-III, and another for me with my 486 and p100
<water> that what the "reflection" buzzword is about
<smokie> :-)
<water> yeah, but you could argue that for a 6502
<smokie> indeed ! :)
<smokie> i have this personal dilemma; it wouldn't be hard for me to buy a P-III, but I just don't feel the need..
<water> there's a threshhold for any kind of near-realtime performance for any programming scheme
<smokie> the things i want to do with my machines are mostly experimenting with some math and then writing a TeX article about it.. I could do that on a 286 eventually..
<water> get a powermac g4! :)
<smokie> however, i see linux eating up more and more memory each day, and Hurd was even worse.. So my interest in new OS designs started growing, but my hopes went down :)
<water> all of them are oses written in c/c++, you'll notice :)
02:40am
<smokie> i got the impression that dynamic languages eat even more memory -- is that a common misconception with stubborn static-language people? :)
<water> sometimes dynamic languages do (as in self), but usually that's an implementation decision
<water> for instance, newtonscript runs easily in 640k, but is much like self
<smokie> hm
<smokie> iirc self is a product of sun?
<water> sort of
<water> they did the research for it, and it's on their site, but now there are programmers trying to make open-source versions
<smokie> aha
<smokie> interesting
<smokie> i have been considering other languages, but i really want to start programming [excited sigh]
<water> yeah, the desire to program should override quixotic fantasies
<smokie> :)
<smokie> for the gui itself we probably will have to implement a new language
<smokie> there are some scheme interpreters but they're all too slow for realtime purposes
<water> well, my gui ideas center around making a "system of visual concepts" for the user to work with
<smokie> hmm
<water> the basic routines could be compiled statically, leaving the high-level semantics dynamic
<smokie> perhaps i had better called it a 'ui' then
<water> whatever. i only have tunes/arrow in mind
<smokie> indeed.. it's the base that we wanted to do in C++ (with some assembly language where needed and possible), and then build the top layer in a special language
<smokie> :)
<smokie> arrow is a base OS for tunes, no ?
<water> well, i meant statically programming it in the hll
<water> what?!?
<water> hell no! :)
<smokie> eek i said something wrong :)
<water> arrow is a superset of tunes
02:50am
<smokie> note the lack of knowledge about the tunes project that i bear 
<water> well, the arrow docs are fairly small
<smokie> hum hum .. i thought tunes was a superset of nearly everything already...
<water> hehe
<smokie> or is it that tunes is the OS related superset, and arrow wraps a ui too ?
<water> er.. sort of
<water> arrow adds on the idea of ontologies and formal information theory
<smokie> "An Introduction to the Arrow System" i should read that now :)
<water> actually, it replaces the hll with epistemic and ontological constructs
<smokie> hm
<water> it's not a very good paper, but i am working on replacements
<smokie> ontology is scary science to me
<water> it's definitely too abstract for the average person
<water> (or the average tuneser, for that matter)
<smokie> all i did related to ontology is limited to defining a database consisting of 3 fields and N+1 records (where N approaches infinity)
<water> hehe
<smokie> field_from field_via field_to, all of type INT
<water> the ontologies i want to use will require a new theory
<smokie> everything could be described in such a manner, by simply linking it to other objects.. the images that appear when you look into infinity should resemble reallife probably :)
<water> maybe i'll call them "abstract ontologies"
<water> yeah, that's the idea
<water> roughly
<smokie> 'link' is _the_ word here i think.
<water> 'link' = arrow? :)
<smokie> hm
<smokie> hm hm
<water> lol
<smokie> there IS a substantial difference between a link and a directed arrow
<smokie> i'm afraid a directed arrow is limiting
<water> well, the arrow can be interpreted with meaning
<smokie> yes, which introduces the need for meaning
<water> i.e. context-dependence
<smokie> hm
<water> which, say, ontologies could provide? :)
<water> er... maybe meta-ontologies
<smokie> come to think of it, i explained the field-structure wrong.. it shouldn't be from-via-to but just node-link-node
<smokie> that saves space by a factor 2 to start with :)
<water> i've definitely been considering methods to save space in my arrow prototype
<smokie> what i thought of was to limit the database each night
03:00am
<water> "each night"?
<smokie> ehm
<smokie> it's a dynamic system.. records are added every second
<smokie> when you type in a new word for example, that's added to the user
<water> so you mean GC
<smokie> hm hm
<smokie> sort of yes
<smokie> every night the system could start in a few random nodes (or possibly the last-touched ones) and from there browse the link-tree
<water> or more like taking a change log and compacting into the db
<smokie> 10 levels of browsing or so should be enough; the records that are not touched can safely be destroyed then (the human memory fades too)
<water> dunno about that
<smokie> i assume our models differ wildly at the implementation level :)
<smokie> i just thought about it for some months and then let the idea go
<water> implementation should follow design philosophy
<smokie> i couldn't find a medium that could hold the N approximation
<water> well, i've been working on arrow (off and on) for about six years
<smokie> wow
<smokie> it's really funny to see that more people have thought of it :)
<water> yeah, i thought up the vague idea on a school bus
<water> it's a common idea
<smokie> hm i didn't think so
<water> the idea of using links to specify meaning was explored in the sixth century
<smokie> wow
<water> but they didn't have the conceptual ammunition to deal with the complexity
<smokie> most people don't have the power to understand nowadays either
<water> well, "most people" don't understand much at all
<smokie> i gave up on the idea because everyone i tried to explain it said 'jeah jeah in the year 3000 perhaps it'll work'
<water> hehe
<water> i'm very stubborn
<smokie> i should have explained it with N instead of 'zilliards of records' perhaps :)
<water> but then, i've convinced quite a few people
<water> well, my system intends to deal with numbers without limit (beyond any particualr infinities you have in mind)
<smokie> the first idea that i could come up with was NODE(int),NODE(int),DESCRIPTION(string-of-chars)
<water> eek
<smokie> after some days the DESCRIPTION field seemed somewhat irritating, and then after some more thinking it seemed useless too
<water> you should read that paper
<smokie> but then i felt NODE(int),NODE(int) was somewhat limited, and then i introduced the LINK(int) field
<smokie> so to speak
<water> i'd like to know what you think of it
<smokie> i'm very much interested and i'll surely read it!
<water> cool
<water> thanks
<smokie> are you working on this at a university btw?
<water> nope. i dropped out because my cs and math dept's couldn't help me at all
<water> i'll be going back in about 2.5 years
<water> i correspond with a bunch of professors, though
03:10am
<smokie> The goal for the system is to promote complete freedom in the sharing of useful
<smokie>     information among people and machines.
<smokie> _very interesting_
<water> hehe
<smokie> was that your first goal or did that pop up later?
<water> well, it's not the precise goal, but the sentence describes it fairly well
<smokie> the first concept i had was designed as a generalization of a BBS
<water> my idea was closer to ai. i later realized what exactly i really wanted
<smokie> it suddenly embraced the WWW and a lot more too
<water> my original idea, that is
<water> well, i wanted to make it personal (or at least personalizable)
<smokie> hm it could be that AI played some role.. at that time we were discussing an AI environment for virtual robots that could explore a virtual reality
<smokie> personal?
<water> yes, it relates to some ideas about information privacy rights
<smokie> *thinks*
<water> like the ability to shape your thoughts any way you choose and still be able to share them with others
<smokie> aaaaaah!
<smokie> one could just open up the personal database for others to learn from?
<smokie> ..so to speak
<water> increased diversity of human creation without having to rely on a "standard"
<water> yes, sort of
<smokie> aren't you afraid of the HUGE recordlists?
<water> but you could also have the ultimate ability to hide info
<water> not really.
<water> i knew that this project would only find a home in performance levels of the future
<smokie> hm
<water> (back in 93)
<smokie> one really needs a big as/400 for things like these
<water> and there are many ways to compact information structures
<water> no, not really
<water> at least, i don't intend it to need a big machine
<smokie> considered a distributed approach?
<water> sort of
<water> standards could be posted in places, but only their public availability makes them standard
<smokie> another thing-what would make a basic storage link? the 'integer' in my model isn't all that nice
<water> well... arrows
<water> i.e. abstractions of pointers
<water> actually, CONS cells
<smokie> cons?
<water> from lisp
<smokie> ehm i know but very little lisp
<smokie> (emacs lisp for helping me in editing)
<water> a cons is the basic unit of lisp syntax. it's a data structure with two elements. each element can point to another cons, so you can build up syntax trees or loops or other shapes
03:20am
<water> cons = (a b)
<smokie> what is (+ a b) then for example? that has 3 elements
<water> it's really (+ (a b))
<smokie> aaaaah
<water> it's syntactic sugar
<smokie> okay :)
<smokie> one last note before i go..
<water> sure
<smokie> wouldn't this all fit in fuzzy set theory?
<water> eek
<smokie> okay that was a hard one
<water> yeah, maybe, but the arrow theory is very precise
<smokie> extending the object concept to a fuzzy set and the arrow into a set-operator..
<water> and it has no semantic assumptions built in
<smokie> hm hm
<water> which allows more to be built into ontologies than other languages allow
<smokie> an arrow could easily be defined as the (what's that operator called in english)
<water> lambda?
<water> set-membership?
<smokie> x is element of both A and B
<smokie> A through B ?
<smokie> A cut B ?
<water> read the paper
<smokie> sorry, i only know it in dutch and as a symbol :)
<water> right
<water> it's ok
<smokie> okay i'll stop rambling.. :) thanks for this discussion!
<smokie> bye bye
<water> no prob
<water> bye
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03:30am
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<water> hcf!
<water> :)
<hcf> water!
<water> i've been ts&r'ing the computers inmy house for a week
<water> the house sitter really screwed them all up :(
<hcf> ts&r?
<water> troubleshoot and repair
<water> anyway, my desktop system is now totally a linux box
<hcf> so ur back?
<water> yep. for a year or so
<water> i need to upgrade the kernel, though, since my agp card is now useless
<water> redhat 5.1 only comes with 2.0.34
<water> i'll be getting beos next month, and that will be my primary user os
<water> oh, i got a reply from some of the professors whom i wrote
<water> they don't know of anyone who could help
<water> :(
<hcf> damn it
<water> they suggested i go to uwash for paper proofing
<water> since i live nearby
05:30am
<water> i even explained how reflective arrow logic related to Lisp, since the notion is familiar, as well as their own research
<water> however, i've been steadily refining my ideas for the arrow code
<water> as well as the formal specs
<water> unfortunately, i don't feel ready to commit any of the ideas yet to code until i go on vacation next friday, when i can devote more attention to it
<water> oh yes, i'm moving to downtown seattle soon, primarily to get closer to the univ district as well as the library system
<water> any news for tunes?
<water> has fare done a damned thing yet?
<hcf> not afaik
<water> #modtunes isn't even logged yet, apparently
<hcf> abi: seen fare
<abi> fare was last seen on IRC 1 days, 13 hours, 23 minutes and 49 seconds ago, saying: goto 3053 [Sun Sep 26 16:10:25 1999]
<water> yeah, i checked the logs already for the last few days
<hcf> i havnt been here much
<water> i'm still not done reading all my email
<hcf> when i have been, all i'v seen is liar and his bfe stuff
<water> btw, the squeak project is really active
<water> the most interesting projects they have (imo) are the morphic-interface unification and their work into reflection
<water> they actually have a means for adding on bytecodes for compiled smalltalk code
<water> _dynamically_ (well, not really realtime, but close)
05:40am
<hcf> so whats next?
<water> for whom?
<hcf> u
<water> well, my two-week vacation will give me time to relax and then focus
<water> i.e. focus on squeak code and papers
<water> i'm thinking that code should come first, docs later
<water> since i already have a fairly good idea of what to write, but feel very uncomfortable writing about software that doesn't really exist
<hcf> why not code+docs as one?
<water> well, the code will be documented, but the formal theory requires some extra notation that squeak doesn't yet support
<water> btw, squeak now has a postscript-output facility
<water> (oh yeah, i forgot the token complaint - working in a shipyard sucks. there. i've said it. :)
05:50am
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<water> hello smook
<smook> hi
<smook> i have been reading your paper partially.. it lightens up a lot
<water> cool
<smook> i also noticed that what i was thinking of is what is called pointless arrows
<water> i almost forgot
<water> abi: accial?
<abi> accial is, like, "A Crash Course in Arrow Logic" at ftp://ftp.phil.uu.nl/pub/logic/PREPRINTS/preprint107.ps.Z
<smook> who invented arrow logic?
<water> johan van benthem
<water> 1991
<smook> is he dutch?
<water> yep
<smook> aha
<water> i've been corresponding with him, off and on
<smook> do you happen to know from what university he is? (if at all)
<water> he's a pretty big name in some circles
<water> yeah, univ of amsterdam
<smook> i'm from holland too but definately haven't been to the right circles :)
<water> hehe... FoLLi is the organization
<smook> interesting
<smook> never heard of folli either
<water> "euro association of logic, language, and information"
<water> unfortunately, their journal subscription is the usual $300 per year
<smook> perhaps our university is subscribed to it.. 
<water> perhaps
<smook> i'll be back later
<water> it's mostly very formal logical stuff, and so isn't of much use to a programmer
<water> ok
06:00am
<water> brb
06:10am
<smook> i'm off
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06:30am
<water> well, i have to go to work now
<water> hcf: have anything for me?
<water> well, i'll see you tomorrow afternoon, since i have duty for the next 24hrs
<water> bye
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06:40am
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<fare> hum
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<Fare> Jose Meseguer (of Maude fame) was at a conference joint to ICFP.
<Fare> could not convince him to release sources to Maude, although he promised that he would do it "once they are documented".
<Fare> (!
<Fare> )
12:40pm
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<hcf> z/
<Fare> rrrr.....
01:30pm
<Tril> ?
01:40pm
<Fare> !
<Tril> :P
<Tril> I never even knew Maude was a not open source
<Tril> project
<Fare> only binary available currently
<Fare> the papers are still great
<Tril> ehh..I gotta go
<Tril> see you later
* Tril/#tunes is still away
<Fare> we had two great presentations today, although it's a lot redundant with previous Maude presentations :)
<Fare> they put (rightly) an emphasis on the need not only for reflection, but also for initiality (property that allows for mathematical induction)
01:50pm
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<Fare> h c f !
<hcf> what?
02:10pm
<Fare> how?
<Fare> why?
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02:20pm
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<core> aloha
<eihrul> hello
<eihrul> so did you find the answers to last night's musings?
<core> hi :) no, i spent my day coding, y'see ;)
<eihrul> only would take 5 minutes to ask the guy though :)
03:20pm
<core> well, he lives in north of france (~ 500 miles away). but when i get a hold of him, i will :)
<core> what's up? did you write more of EMK?
<eihrul> in school i did...
<eihrul> on paper :)
<eihrul> in assembly, of course
<eihrul> i rewrote my call activation syscall
<eihrul> and it came out much smaller, pairable, cleaner this time :)
<eihrul> note: making 'typos' on paper sucks
<eihrul> especially in pen
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03:30pm
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<eihrul> liar: you mail kevin?
04:50pm
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<ElGato`> grrr
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06:30pm
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-:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || http://www.aftersleeves.org/apostle/ || http://www.netpedia.net/sites.html
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-:- [Users(#Tunes:6)] 
[ TUNES     ] [@Tril      ] [ smkl      ] [ liar      ] [ eihrul    ] 
[ abi       ] 
[openprojects]!varley.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com crichton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout)
-:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
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-:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about
-:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lucas.openprojects.net)
-:- Your host is lucas.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lucas.openprojects.net)
-:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lucas.openprojects.net)
-:- lucas.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
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!lucas.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 12 (11 clients)
!lucas.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14).
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[ TUNES     ] [ abi       ] [@Tril      ] [ smkl      ] [ liar      ] 
[ eihrul    ] 
-:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
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<liar> wtf
<liar> please tell me what the adult mode password is because im very annoyed that i 
<liar> can not get it when i am at a mature age to see such things
<liar> wackojacko71@hotmail.com
09:10pm
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<liar> hi
<Downix> hey
<liar> i just watched the matrix
<liar> wicked show
<Downix> yeah
09:20pm
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<liar> core!
<eihrul> core: lo
* liar/#tunes thinks core went back to bed :)
<eihrul> damn
<eihrul> sleep....
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10:40pm
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<deity666> a single consciousness that spanned an entire race of machines.
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<liar> eh?
11:10pm
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<liar> core: u here?
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11:40pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0929
IRC log ended Wed Sep 29 00:00:01 1999