IRC log started Fri Oct 29 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1029
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!larne:*! it'd be nice if someone fixed lu
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-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || arrowdev
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<mibin> hmmm
<mibin> is Brian Rice here?
10:40am
<smkl> not atm
<smkl> abi: seen water?
<abi> water was last seen on IRC 11 hours, 40 minutes and 51 seconds ago, saying: toodles [Thu Oct 28 23:04:35 1999]
<mibin> what is his nick?
<smkl> umm .. guess ;)
<mibin> rice?
<smkl> water
<mibin> abi: seen water
<abi> water was last seen on IRC 11 hours, 45 minutes and 15 seconds ago, saying: toodles [Thu Oct 28 23:04:35 1999]
10:50am
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<Tril> re hcf
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 12 hrs 25 min 11 secs
<hcf> hey Tril
<hcf> long time no see
11:40am
<Tril> i haven't made my electronic identity visible here for a while, no
<hcf> r u back for a while or just a day or so?
<Tril> uhh I don't know. I'm working on tunes today. Hopefully I will continue in the future :)
11:50am
<hcf> Tril: did u read the msgs on /. in response to the eros item?
<Tril> no
<hcf> someone mentions tunes
<hcf> http://slashdot.org/articles/99/10/28/0151212.shtml
<Tril> someone ?
<hcf> Ian Bicking (bickiia@earlham.edu)
<Tril> hes not on the lists
<Tril> this bruce schneier interview has applicability to tunes as well
<Tril> wow that's a big thread
<Tril> I dont think we can get slashdotted from a link in the comments, anyway
<hcf> esp. when being dissed ;)
12:00pm
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || arrowdev || logo in scheme <http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~bickiia/logo-scheme/>
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-GlobalMessage(s@GlobalMessage)- sorry, please ignore this. (once only)
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<mibin> !seen water
<Tril> abi seen water
<abi> water was last seen on IRC 13 hours, 34 minutes and 40 seconds ago, saying: toodles [Thu Oct 28 23:04:35 1999]
<mibin> a tnx Tril
12:40pm
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<eihrul> abi: seen core
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 3 days, 3 hours, 48 minutes and 28 seconds ago, saying: hm, well, i'll be back :) you have a good day :) [Tue Oct 26 10:10:49 1999]
<mibin> can anybody enlighten me on Arrow?
<eihrul> did you read the paper?
02:00pm
<mibin> which is the url?
<hcf> abi: arrow?
<abi> arrow is a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<mibin> k tnx
02:10pm
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<hcf> abi: pizza is at http://www.math.luc.edu/pizza/
02:30pm
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<hcf> hi bin
<binEng> hi
<binEng> anything going on?
<hcf> nope
03:30pm
<binEng> ok, just wanted to be sure
<binEng> don't you see that as a problem, as Tunes' member and everything? Shouldn't there be all kinds of activity around here?
<hcf> there will likely be some activity in a few hours
<binEng> there will?
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<hcf> binEng: yeah, probly
<hcf> how about #tpp? any activity there? ;)
<binEng> nah :(
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<hcf> binEng: see, now heres fire and pyro, and soon activity
<binEng> great!
03:40pm
<fire> heh i didn't notice pyro being here
<fire> if my parents didn't name me tom i would have wanted to be named tom
<fire> er
<fire> if they hadn't named my david rather
<fire> :D
<pyro> hey i've got a brother named dave
<fire> cool
<pyro> little delinquent, hehe
<fire> anyone here know anything about scheme?
<hcf> anyone notice the bug in the "new" altavista?
<fire> hcf: no, what is it?
<hcf> _every_ page size iz 10K or 11K
<pyro> hehe
<pyro> Scheme?
<abi> Scheme is a badass dialect of lisp or ((nearly) (perfect))
03:50pm
<pyro> it's a simplified versin of lisp
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<hcf> fire (when elgato) put in the badass part of the factoid
<pyro> smartass
<hcf> abi: scheme =~ s/badass //
<abi> OK, hcf
<hcf> abi: scheme =~ s/lisp/Lisp that stresses conceptual elegance and simplicity/
<abi> OK, hcf
<mibin> but ...
<mibin> is scheme reflective?
<mibin> or ...
04:00pm
<mibin> can be used to create a reflective system?
<pyro> Rscheme might be reflective
<hcf> rscheme is at http://www.rscheme.org
<mibin> tnx
<pyro> Fare said it was damn close to his idea of Tunes
<hcf> pyro: which, of course, the review of it makes no mention of
<pyro> haha
<pyro> I distictly recall Fare saying something like "Rscheme is Tunes".. like the rscheme guys had beat him to it
<pyro> like it's not the greatest Tunes implementation, but at least it's reflective
<pyro> and it's got persistent storage, GC, all that stuff
<hcf> whats missing?
<pyro> hmm, maybe because it's not an OS in itself
04:10pm
<hcf> how bout s/TUNES/RschemeOS/ ?
<pyro> there's the lispOS project.. and there was the LispM a long time ago..
<pyro> I bet persistence and stuff isn't that useful when it has to go through Unix
<pyro> Rscheme would need its own filesystem and things like that, which it currently relies on Unix for
<pyro> abi: forthos?
<abi> i haven't a clue, pyro
<pyro> abi: fos?
<abi> no idea, pyro
<pyro> abi: retro?
<abi> i haven't a clue, pyro
<hcf> what?!!
<pyro> I betcha that retro/forth-os will become useful way before any lisp-os because we don't have to worry about distractions like GC
<hcf> pyro: would u mind filling the missing factoids?
<pyro> it's just "take this forth interpreter, those drivers, write a couple utilities.. done.  Ok, let's add some useful features people have suggested.. ok, next.."
<pyro> hcf: sure
<pyro> abi: retro = tcn's Forth-based OS project at http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro/
<pyro> retro?
<hcf> it uses 'is' not '='
04:20pm
<pyro> abi: retro is tcn's Forth-based OS project at http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro/ (superceded by Forth-OS)
<pyro> abi: fos is short for Forth-OS
<pyro> abi: Forth-OS is the successor to Retro (no web page yet)
<pyro> fos?
<abi> fos is, like, short for Forth-OS
<hcf> ur renaming retro to forth-os?
<pyro> maybe
<hcf> i thot there was already a forth-os
<pyro> there is?
<hcf> im pretty sure
<pyro> let's search..
<hcf> MFIG's FOS @ http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~nbuck/fos.html
<hcf> thats what i was thinking of
<pyro> we've been calling it forth-os in emails.
<pyro> ok
<hcf> u joined them?
<pyro> no
<pyro> umm, their page is dated 1996
<pyro> maybe they put it aside
<hcf> whats wrong w/ 'retro'? its much better than forth-os
* hcf/#tunes whines
<pyro> heh
<hcf> forth-os is also generically named
<pyro> I think forth-os may end up being a 'standard' but I'll keep the name Retro for this one.. it's cooler :)
<hcf> good idea
04:30pm
<hcf> then ppl can start flamewars
<pyro> I mean, other people will write their own forth-oses and we'll probably adopt certain conventions for filesystems, etc... 
<pyro> abi: forget fos and forth-os
<abi> pyro, I didn't have anything matching fos and forth-os
<pyro> abi: forget fos
<abi> pyro: I forgot fos
<pyro> abi: forget forth-os
<abi> pyro: I forgot forth-os
<pyro> abi: retro?
<abi> retro is tcn's Forth-based OS project at http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro/ (superceded by Forth-OS)
<pyro> abi: no, retro is tcn's Forth OS project at http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro/
<abi> okay, pyro.
<pyro> besides, if it stays Retro I don't need to get a copyright waiver from my boss since I published it before I was hired
<pyro> it took Emmanuel Marty a goddamn year and a half to get a waiver for his OS..
04:40pm
<mibin> abi: seen water
<abi> water was last seen on IRC 17 hours, 39 minutes and 33 seconds ago, saying: toodles [Thu Oct 28 23:04:35 1999]
<mibin> k
<mibin> c ya guys
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04:50pm
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<pyro> hey brian
<water> hey
<pyro> mibin was just lookin for ya
<water> who is that?
<pyro>  mibin@62.10.4.103 (Ragno)
* water/#tunes checks the logs
<pyro> *just* left
<hcf> water: he was here most of the day, just waiting for u
<pyro> rofl
<water> ouch
<pyro> email, anyone? ;)
<water> why was he looking for me?
<hcf> water: interest in arrow
<water> cool
* water/#tunes jots an email to him
<hcf> he hadnt read the paper yet
<water> how did he find out about it?
<hcf> unsure
<water> hcf: what do you think of my problems with the tunes mlist?
<water> (emphasis on *my*)
<hcf> dont stress, just do arrowdev
<water> k
<pyro> problems? you mean arguments?
<water> i didn't finish the revs to the spec last night
<hcf> which, btw, zhivago looks like he could be helpful
<water> so i'll get them done now and send it out
<water> hcf: how so?
<pyro> is zhivago ever around?
<hcf> water: at least for writing reader-friendly docs
<hcf> pyro: later usully
<water> yes, well that's mostly what the revs are for
05:00pm
<water> since i got some good feedback
<pyro> hcf: he's working on lispos, right?
<water> (on irc)
<hcf> pyro: unsure
<pyro> seen zhivago?
<pyro> abi: seen zhivago?
<abi> zhivago was last seen on IRC 17 hours, 47 minutes and 5 seconds ago, saying: oops, too late :) [Thu Oct 28 23:13:55 1999]
<hcf> water: he seemed to catch on faster
<pyro> than who?
<hcf> uhm, others
<water> hcf: yes, but our philosophies clash, so there might be a while before we can work out our differences
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<hcf> ur philosophy clashes w/ everyone's
<pyro> water: same with me.. and I'm also interested in working out a simple explanation
<pyro> hcf :)
<air> pyro: hey, how goes retro?
<water> hcf: heh
<binEng> water: Have you tried to let someone you've explained Arrows to write about it? Maybe that would be easier for others to read.
<water> bin: it's _open_.
<water> anyone can implement it however they want or write whatever they want about it
<pyro> air: good, good :)  Got some good forth programmers involved now. I'm rewriting it so it only uses Forth to compile itself.
<binEng> water: Well, unless it catches on, nobody is going to write about it unless you ask them for it.
<water> i've asked several people to write intros
<water> but they're waiting for the code to be completed and some examples written
<binEng> but..?
<abi> i heard but was it the current version?
<binEng> :)
<pyro> I'd write about arrow but I'm too damn busy
<pyro> and I'm kind of a pragmatist.. Forth is practical so it's more important to me
05:10pm
<binEng> water: How does multi-arrows work? Are they constructs inside the arrow world, or a kind of "second atom"?
<water> bin: well they're just another kind of arrow... they're better at modeling relations, though
<water> bin: because you can directly represent n-place relations
<binEng> so there are arrows and multi-arrows?
<water> bin: the reason that they're in the paper is that it is simple to use arrows to simulate multi-arrows
<water> yeah, but they don't exist in the same 'universe'
<binEng> ah, so multi-arrows would still be built using ordinary arrows, then.
<binEng> eh?
<water> well, the usual arrows are special cases of multi-arrows
<water> the two types are like different languages for talking about relations and such
<water> sorry, i guess the 'universe' word was confusing
<binEng> but if arrows are special cases of multi-arrows, there's not really two "types", is there?
<water> yes there is, because it doesn't make arrows 'subtypes' of multi-arrows
<water> having multi-arrows pre-supposes the natural numbers, for instance
* water/#tunes ponders
<binEng> wouldn't mostly anything pre-suppose the natural numbers? I mean.. you can use almost anything to differentiate between 0 and 1, and in that way define "fixed points" for the natural numbers.
05:20pm
<water> well, i don't think that arrows need the natural numbers per se in order to work well
<water> because arrows don't have variable size
<water> multi-arrows do
<binEng> so they do, eh
<water> hmm. but then multi-arrows don't have to be limited in cardinality (size)
<water> you could have multi-arrows with more than an infinite number of points
<binEng> But you could never capture more than a finite number of 'non-uniformly' objects
<water> sure
<water> the information content of the whole arrow system (on a fsm) would have to be finite
<binEng> exactly
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* water/#tunes envisions future computers not being limited by finiteness per se.
<binEng> How does multi-arrows look anyway? All extending from the same origin, and reaching different objects? How can you access the size of it?
<water> dunno. i haven't worked with them outside of using them to conceptualize n-place relation
<binEng> but they do share a common tail?
<water> of course not
<binEng> no.. when I think about it.
05:30pm
<pyro> water: look at the Xanalogical Media article (linked from the bottom of udanax.com page).. you should do something lik that for arrows..
<water> ok
<water> is that that superduper hypertext system?
05:40pm
<water> hmm
<water> i don't like natural language per se as media
<water> but otherwise, the ideas there look really good
<pyro> wow.. I found one picture that really makes everything clear
<pyro> (I was reading it in Lynx yesterday.. Netscape 3.0 today :)
<pyro> 3.0 rules, by the way
<water> wow. Xanadu was a one-person development for about 19 years
<water> that beats arrow by 13
<binEng> :)
<pyro> well that explains how a journalling filesystem works
<water> what does?
05:50pm
<pyro> this picture in the Xanalogical Media article
<water> which one?
<pyro> 4th from the bottom
<pyro> this is exactly why we need something like Xanadu :)
<pyro> anchored links suck
<water> ok
<water> i still don't like the idea of basing it on natural language sentences
<pyro> I thought it was based on bitstreams
<pyro> or just streams
<water> same thing
<water> (to me)
<pyro> well there are analog streams
<pyro> but anyway
06:00pm
<pyro> so xanadu can do cool things because it doesn't butcher documents with embedded tags
<water> i can't figure out how mibin learned about arrow except by word-of-mouth or by reading the mlist archives, but then he'd have also read the tunes front page
<water> yeah, it's a nice abstract hypertext system
<pyro> separate data and indices
<pyro> seems like a reasonable thing to do :)
<pyro> I gotta play with something like that
* water/#tunes concentrates on getting the revised arrow spec ready
<pyro> ok I won't bug ya
06:10pm
<water> mibin's host doesn't exist
<pyro> he's in Tiscali, Italy
<pyro> dialup IP #, I guess
<water> yeah
<pyro> tiscalinet.it
06:20pm
<pyro> that was one long traceroute
<water> heh
<pyro> boston, NY, london, frankfurt, milan?..
<pyro> longer for you on the west coast
<water> yeah
<pyro> where did yours take you?
<water> i don't have a traceroute on this machine
<pyro> hey I'll try it from bespin :)
<water> my linux box is still internet disabled
<water> oh yeah
<pyro> 30 hops max ain't enough :)
<water> damn i hate win98
<water> this is definitely *not* my machine
<binEng> lemme try, what's the address?
<pyro> oh it gets stuck on one
<pyro> 62.10.4.103
<pyro> hm.. it went straight from Palo Alto to Vienna
<pyro> satellite I guess
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<pyro> yeah. my ping to london is faster than bespin's even though I'm on a modem.
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<eihrul> abi: seen core
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 3 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 39 seconds ago, saying: hm, well, i'll be back :) you have a good day :) [Tue Oct 26 10:10:49 1999]
<eihrul> dern
<pyro> haha
<binEng> stockholm, london, frankfurt(i), italy. I think.
<pyro> when I leave I'll hafta say I'm going to kill myself
<binEng> sounds like a good strategy to stay here then
06:30pm
<pyro> then adopt a new nick
<binEng> after you killed yourself?
<pyro> yup
<pyro> nah
<pyro> I'm off to India
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<binEng> I never considered before that lists can be seen as functions..
<_water> really?
<binEng> yes
<_water> i mean, you really didn't think so?
<binEng> hadn't thought about it until now
<_water> hm
<binEng> I'm wondering how functions (with regard to in- and outvalues), variables and constants can be seen as the same thing.
<_water> well i guess variables could be functions from language symbols to values
<binEng> that's true
<_water> constants seem just like variables where changing them requires an explicit change in context
06:40pm
<_water> but then, constants should be useful in optimization
<_water> i.e. partial-eval
<_water> i don't really know for sure
<binEng> you mean that constants are only so in a certain context?
<_water> well, that's how i see it
<binEng> ic
<_water> you generalize a context by making a constant into a variable
<binEng> in a wide sense
<_water> which means that constants are function-applications
<binEng> what?
<_water> considering varialbes as functions
<_water> hmm
<binEng> function-applications == running a function?
<_water> yeah
<_water> if f is a function, then f(x) is an application
<binEng> ok
<binEng> If they are to be the same, variables and constants should be allowed to be expressed as a function-application, then.
<_water> you could do that, yes
<binEng> And they are 'reduced' to the simplest form.. i.e. where they evaluate to themselves
<_water> but usual compilers wouldn't optimize it correctly, i think, unless they were well-tuned
<_water> you'd have to think in terms of data-flow
<_water> which reminds me of plisp
<binEng> How would that be written in lambda-calculus?
<_water> how would what be written?
<binEng> That a term evaluates to itself?
<_water> darn bbiam
<binEng> Identity, maybe?
06:50pm
<_water> sort of
<_water> plisp uses something called 'graph rewrite'
<binEng> what was that about data-flow?
<_water> you take a data-flow graph (where nodes are applications), and reduce it by evaluating the applications until you're left with a single node - the answer
<_water> a data-flow graph is just a system of directed links between function applications
<_water> i/o for functions
<binEng> hmm
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<water> heh. i didn't notice that my nick was different
07:00pm
<water> there are some good intros to rewrite systems
<binEng> rewrite systems?
<water> yeah, languages that use various kinds of rewrite rules
<water> like maude
<water> abi maude?
<abi> maude is, like, a rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/
<binEng> rules for rewriting what?
<water> abi: maude is also reflective
<abi> okay, water.
<water> terms (expressions)
<binEng> ok
07:10pm
<binEng> Good night.
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( <k!14>)
<pyro> abi: seen bineng?
<abi> bineng was last seen on IRC 52 seconds ago, saying: Good night. [Fri Oct 29 19:14:09 1999]
07:20pm
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<water> hey fire
<fire`> Buenas noches amgios
<fire`> como estan uds.
<fire`> ?
* water/#tunes is experiencing the bliss of a new $10,000 sound system
<fire`> heh
<water> and writing arrow specs
<water> i.e. mlist stuff
<fire`> im trying to see if i can't write my interpreter in scheme
<water> k
<fire`> scheme is oh so much easier
<fire`> but im a real rookie
<water> heh
* fire`/#tunes fondles his premature facial hairs
<water> lol
<fire`> i don't get the purpose of (let)
<water> it binds a symbol to a value without making an actual variable
09:00pm
<fire`> so it doesn't waste heap space?
<water> among other things, yes
<fire`> is there a compile mode for rsc?
<water> you mean to compile to machine code or bytecode?
<water> to bytecode, yes
<fire`> what about to an executable?
<water> dunno
<water> depends on the implementation
09:10pm
<water> i'm not familiar enough with it
<fire`> scheme sure is fun
<water> i guess
<fire`> not to mention smalltalk :P
<water> heh
<water> the environment is what makes a language fun, imo
<fire`> i wish i knew howt o use emacs
<water> it has a lot of features
<fire`> well like the lisp pretty printer
<water> yeah
09:20pm
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<water> hello kt
<kt91> HI
<kt91> how r u?
<kt91> elooooooooooooooooo
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<water> heh
<water> oh well
09:30pm
<fire`> heh...it's home coming night
<fire`> and im not at home coming
<water> lol
<water> and you're learning a new language
<water> "you know you're a geek if ..." :)
<air> i was watching freaks and geeks tonight and these 3 geeks fought this jock and lost
<air> the one geek was even bigger and all the geeks did was try and hug him
<air> fire`: is that how u fight?
<fire`> no
<air> :)
<fire`> i haven't been in a fight since third grade
<fire`> i almost got in a fight on tuesday
<fire`> but my problem is anger
<fire`> i get angry after the confrentation
<fire`> not during
<fire`> so i never get into a fight
<air> thats too bad
<air> i never got into anger type fights
<air> we just fought for the title
<air> pound yer friends face into the ground and hang out with him the next day like nothing happened 
<fire`> if i did anything to my friends, they'd be in the hospital
<fire`> they don't really know how to take punches
<air> u dont look like u know howto throw punches 
<fire`> uhhh
<fire`> i do
<fire`> i just haven't in a while
<air> atleast u dont have anything to BACK the punch
09:40pm
<fire`> yes...i need to get in a fight
<fire`> just for the sake of fighting
<air> u do
<air> its fun
<fire`> i remember when i was in first through third grade
<fire`> i got in a fight every two weeks
<air> but more fun when u can do something other than little kid punching
<fire`> i remember the first time i punched someone in the face
<fire`> that sound is like music to my ears
<fire`> then i chipped my tooth...
<fire`> never got in a fight again :\
<air> nah
<fire`> the thing is though i don't have anyone to fight
<air> walk outside and fight the first huge male u see
<fire`> there is no honor in that
<air> ya there is
<air> title
<fire`> if anyone gives me any crap i will give them lip
* water/#tunes suggests #machotalk
<fire`> then when they come at me
<fire`> i shall restore my honor
09:50pm
<air> not likely
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10:00pm
<water> hi td
<td> hey water
* water/#tunes is studying the self vm docs for ideas
10:10pm
<water> hmm
<water> "visual sslf"?
<water> "visual self"?
<water> i just got this idea
* water/#tunes files the idea into his arrow interfaces ideas
<td> oh?
<water> sort of an arrow-like self
<td> i see
<water> i.e. no text identifier dependence, visual syntax
<water> the semantics of ui objects would be the self-like thing
<water> with a few changes
<td> i'll have to check out self
<water> td: tutorial -> http://self.sunlabs.com/release/Self-4.0/Tutorial/index.html
<td> ok thanks
<water> it's impossible to get a useful version (one that runs on pc's)
<water> but the source is open
<td> oh.
<td> i got one self interpretter.. but i noticed it was broken or not finished
<water> there are a few projects to port it to linux, etc, but they aren't done
<water> oh yeah, that's jecel's code
<water> it doesn't do much
<water> abi: self?
<abi> self is a prototype-based object system or at http://self.sunlabs.com/
<water> there are a few links to the projects that work on porting it
<td> yeah
10:50pm
<air> water: u spend too much time talking on irc and not enough time working on arrow
<water> er... this is one of about seven windows open right now
<water> i'm looking at self ideas and trying to relate it to arrow
<air> if i counted the number of irc lines beginning with yer name it would show that yer attention has been on this window for quite some time today :)
<water> heh
<water> fair enough
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<air> ok now that i got him to leave we can talk about hardware or asm programming
<fire`> :D
<air> or fighting :)
<fire`> i sure do love to fight...
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
11:10pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1030
IRC log ended Sat Oct 30 00:00:00 1999