IRC log started Thu Jan 13 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0113 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-172.tscnet.net]) -:- Cradle-Of-Filth [string28@ABD31D85.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes sup people -:- Cradle-Of-Filth [string28@ABD31D85.ipt.aol.com] has left #tunes [] 04:00am -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-179.ici.net] has joined #tunes morning all good afternoon it's 9am for me and SNOWING! snowing? :P almost rain here 06:10am hehe Anybody that know where I can find an interactive Forth interpreter for Windows? -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-240-209.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes 06:20am binEng: win32forth bE: see the clf FAQ and/or www.forth.org thanks 06:40am -:- ult [noone@user-38lc60r.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes man, this is dull 07:20am -:- binEng_ [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Read error to binEng[j141.ryd.student.liu.se]: Connection reset by peer) -:- binEng_ is now known as binEng hey 07:50am -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[mp-217-240-209.daxnet.no]) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-138-209.s209.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-179.ici.net]) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-179.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: its what's for lunch) * Fufie/#tunes stretches -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc60r.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- NetSplit: bear.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [09:33am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [bear.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: bear.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-212-66.s574.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-38.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (bbl!) ick. the images in maude html manual are links to sri :/ 10:50am -:- ult [noone@user-38lc61a.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes sri? hmm maude also hogs memory what platform does it run under? linux, solaris, fbsd it doesn't seem to have source not Win, then abi: sri is at http://www.sri.com/ -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc61a.dialup.mindspring.com]) 11:10am -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-241-236.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes Is this channel logged somewhere ? yes.. look at the site somewhere 11:20am yes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] I came, I saw, I ran away screaming) I can see myself in the log :) reload it and you'll see your last line too :) -:- ult [noone@user-37kba9r.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes Rats. Poor timestamping. binEng: :D great entertainment, eh.. Much like connecting a mike to the pc an turning up the latency to a few seconds.. :) :) looking at oneself is reflection.. the key point of tunes ;) something like that, yes 11:30am reflection is pointless =) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-173.s173.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 11:40am -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-37kba9r.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[207-172-49-173.s173.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) reflection noitcelfer sseltniop * Fufie/#tunes yawns hi hi thomas over half of the people in the channel are norwegians now :) and everyone has background from the same university.. weird :-) 12:10pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp135.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (foo) fufie, who are they, besides us two? 12:30pm ghyll oh, I can't see him now he just logged out.. Ghyll was karltk@mp-217-241-236.daxnet.no (Karl Trygve Kalleberg) one of the finest hackers I have met Is he still at uni? yeah.. also doing hovedfag but he's been ill the last year.. just like me ok * eihrul/#tunes ponders. hovedfag? fufie, you've looked at TOOL/TML yet :) fare, =major at uni abi: seen water water was last seen on IRC 14 hours, 1 minutes and 51 seconds ago, saying: k [Wed Jan 12 22:36:20 2000] major? like, the best student? like, the last big assignment oh fare: somewhere in-between ph.d/masters fare: same thing I do you copycat 12:40pm fare: heh :) he's working on analysing code in his theiss, I work on aop thesis thomas: I have had a look but I haven't really had time for a thorough check of it like I wanted to thomas: it is still in my mailbox, marked specially to remind me every time I open my mailbox.. :) good! do you have any questions thomas: I have a nightmarish schedule :( and now the semester starts as well you selfish bastard ! :D selfish as hell.. esp. as all projects are free or will be free :p yeah, too good for our money, ey ? I work some every year to have enough money and use the remaining months for free projects two-three months of work and the rest is dedicated to free stuff and research thomas: had a look at maude? I mean, a thorough look? the graph rewriting thing! maybe another at gpp -:- tmp [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes is it good? greetings luckily I have no problems finding people who want to pay me ;) (gpp is also a string-rewriting language/preprocessor done by a friend of mine) hi tmp new paper on Stalin! ftp://ftp.nj.nec.com/pub/qobi/fdlcc.ps.Z do not distribute or cite w/o permission oops is that a dev-code or is NEC doing communist propaganda? well, you've been warned. (under review for TOPLAS) OPLA TOPLAS? ask google. Yet another CS conference oops, a journal, instead yeah.. there seems to be hundreds of those posting to teh typing mailing-list ACM Transactions on Programming Languages and Systems (TOPLAS) that has more cred :) Flow-Directed Lightweight Closure Conversion. 12:50pm global program optimization sure this sounds totemo dumbass, but could you give me a basic idea of what's 'tunes' please tmp: it's not dumbass tmp: it's a project for a reflective system operating ~, i guess a framework for programs to help develop other programs ahh no, computing system; we refuse the separation between operating system and language we think it's harmful factoring yet another inheritance from proprietary software so you're going to build something like a all-integrated development environment yes, but hopefully more than that so tell me more about that for isntance, we wish to encourage metaprogramming -- programs that manipualte programs binaries? or s.th. completely interpreted or intermediate? tmp: maybe read my papers in http://tunes.org/papers/ binaries, but mostly sources -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-135-44.s552.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes I'll do that for what purpose binaries meant for direct execution are usually not the right thing to manipulate right... hence my question we support free software (see my paper on metaprogramming and free availability source) getting it down right now... looks~ interesting are you developing from scratch or is the system based on s.th 01:00pm as for interpretation vs al: we want it dynamically compiled scratch UNIX compatible? in a manner of speaking no although a long-term goal would be to have scriptable emulators. you'll have to start with some software to get users we'll have to start with a core, to have some software i mean a working environment like the shell in the UNIX model with some external utils you mean, like the REPL in a LISP, or the line interaction in a FORTH for basic networking and fs navogation -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us943.javanet.com] has joined #tunes we don't want fs; we want orthogonal persistence but we'll need persistent store navigation, too. that means? orthogonal persistence ? http://www.tunes.org/papers/Glossary/index.html#orthogonal_persistence reading while chatting i don't want to annoy you with so damn basic questions, so i'll first finish reading and come back later ok. You're welcome. thx. see you -:- tmp [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has left #tunes [] nice newbie. 01:10pm What does "Hindsight is 20-20" mean? 20-20 is the same as "normal" (eyesight) oh. is it pitman's article? he writes pretty decently.. yup. Always interesting. pitman's? Not that I always agree Kent a gentleman 02:00pm misled in the ways of proprietary software his generation was misled only rms stayed true yup * Fare/#Tunes is reading Las Casas' "Brief relation of the destruction of Indies". In comparison, all our trouble seem so little. Quite horrible, but refreshing in a way. as for agreeing, that's not important for good writing.. it might actually ruin the reading experience by lulling one into a nodding-mood.. self quote: "To appreciate an intelligent man is to have some pleasure when one agrees with him, and to have an instructive pleasure when one does not. :) I prefer eloquent writers I disagree a lot with.. g.k chesterton is one of those :) provocative chap I didn't read much of his. Maybe because I've tired of catholics, having too many of them in my family. -:- tmp [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes tmp: wb hey, Fare respect. Fufie: is any particular food for thought by him on the web? I found him interesting because his life is almost dedicated to a life-long struggle with himself and his relation to catholisism, where he yields in the end Reminds me of Nietzsche www.chesterton.org I read the introductory concepts (The "Why a new OS"-pages) and it exceeded my expectations by far the irony of it all is that it is yanks who've created the site ;) tmp: thanks a lot tmp: actually, I never could finish that article I first entered this channel with the espectation to find another group of "lets take 4.4 BSD and do a Unix-compatible OS"-kids btw, if anyone here meets people from NSI, be sure to shoot them on my behalf NSI? but reading the texts I was convinced at once of your project Network Solutions, Inc. the guys to whom we owe the InterNIC. The unblended wide-scope sight on things in general is much of my taste ahh tmp: thanks again has internic attacked tunes now? Fufmann: not yet Hey, guys! Let's take 4.4 BSD and do a Unix-compatible OS! fare: great idea :) philosophically and Methodically I remembered reading works of Sigmund Freud, and a bit of Immanuel Cant's Thinking then we make it proprietary, and make lots of money! No question, this is THE shit * Fare/#Tunes admits not being able to read much of Kant's 02:10pm Kant is difficult to read :( The concept is great but what is with the technical realisation and the popular acceptance? * Fare/#Tunes admits not being particularly attracted to Freud; too superficial and short-sighted. tmp: popular concepts are usually bad Some texts by Kant are easy and fun to read. Others are ununderstandable to me non-german speaker. Fufie: uh? The fact that 2+2=4 is popular, and not that bad. the minority may be right, but the majority is always wrong -- ibsen I think your concept might exceed the scope of most humans fufie, that's because stupid people cling to ideas regardless of their quality and that may show to be the main obstacle * Fare/#Tunes saw a play by Ibsen, once * Fare/#Tunes also likes Peer Gynt thomas: I think it is great that we cling to ideas.. but we should cling to the good and wild ideas :) * Fare/#Tunes fortune -m Ibsen tmp: well, maybe. But we may attract humans from the partial implementations of the concept, if we manage to get them thomas: ie it's better to cling to the idea of the Right Thing and try to find it.. and TMF might be the way to get there.. C is not I ment more along the lines of clinging to solutions, or something how long is the project going, and what additional efforts will it take to get a *util*, "real"-world version version of it ? too long but you're right. The right thing ! eternity and beyond! any effort will do, if it's directed towards the core of the system we need a core abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 6 days, 15 hours, 8 minutes and 32 seconds ago, saying: see you! [Thu Jan 6 23:09:13 2000] tmp: if a core is up.. that will help a lot because then losers like me might add code to it.. if you need more manpower, I' like to contribute we need a hard core. Currently there is a soft, fuzz, not-very-well defined core. but i'm very young and unexperienced in OS design www.hardcore.com ? maby, not XXX, just harder :D tmp: "la valeur n'attend pas le nombre des annees" thomas: is the core allowed to wear sandals and wear peace-symbols and think john lennon was the coolest chap ever to live? 02:20pm (what's the english for that sentence?) (isn't there a similar proverb in 'glish?) Fare: dunno, but iI got it's meaning (I don't know french well enough.. I just know the idioms needed to read english and classics) abstracting the french from spanish (that is, the french idioms needed to read english :) tmp: are you spanish-speaking? bilingual ger/sp educated is there an equivalent proverb in german or spanish? know what in ger, but adds nothing to the discussion (in german, there's the complementary "uebung macht den meister") e.g. (in french, "c'est en forgeant qu'on devient forgeron") or "Alter schuetzt vor Thorheit nicht" which expresses an similar attitude the other way tmp: http://www.tunes.org/members.html there is a link to the membership app form.. and I also recommedn subscribing to a few mailing lists as well but back to my question, could you need me as a programmer = ? tmp: yes -:- NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:26pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net] As already mentioned, I'm still unexperienced but I think there exists potencial tmp: which languages do you know? mainly C, getting familiar with Object-oriented Concepts now C++, CORBA still in the beginnings tmp: don't corrupt your brain too much with it ok.. you might want to change perspective slightly to get more in touch with more tunes-friendly languages that means... are you programming 5th generation stuff? if you want real OO, try CL or Smalltalk, or maybe Java; no need to become "expert" in C++ tmp: I recommend that you either go with CL as Fare suggests.. or the somewhat cleaner Scheme to learn the concepts before you try the larger CL with Java the is the inefficiency problem (of course this is not the problem in Future, but with practical implementation right now) you need a VM on most systems and it's doubtful if it'll become the stndard 02:30pm Java might be a industry standard in five years or not - to be on the sure side, why not express the concept in a meta language for first... to be later able to apply it on the implementations (maybe even automatically) but tunes is a free project... not an industry project so it doesn't matter imho which is the industry standard tmp: with Java is the hype and braindeadness problem, and also the "bad camp" problem. if you want something practical, try OCaml. yes - hype. like linux dunno OCaml but linux has gained its hype the hard way * Fufie/#tunes likes linux java has gained a little worth from hype Sun gained it with maketing and capital but what counts after all are the techniques yup. Linux was deserving first, and some additional hype came; Java was hype from day one. Java is hype-oriented computing what counts is style.. and the style should be freedom and not very *useful* by means of system programming (in the traditional way; -maybe it serves your Out-of-Band OS) after all existing computing systems are a set of virtual machines layered upon each other mis-layered, most of the time and statically so like the OSI (apropos, what are you going to use for intercommunication between computing-subsystems as described in the Papers?) 02:40pm we're going to use a concurrent programming language wow.. such as the join-calculus, or an actor language, or linear logic billie boy is resigning I mean in terms of networking wow - it's laggin' Fufmann: he's keeping the stolen dollars, and letting the others manage the crisis yes.. but still.. tmp: well, depends on the hardware; we'll be modular, and not hardwire the underlying protocol tmp: read about protocol negociation in the archives a bit like the GNU HURD you mean Fare: what r u currently working on tunes-wise? hcf: I'm meant to work on the LLL done anything lately? nope any particular reason? http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2000/Jan00/final25ANV.htm 02:50pm Fare: any particular reason? say a word ( or is it just that I'm having net load problems in my region...? ahh.. got you, Fare after 5mins of qquiet pings got through with a max reply time of 2secs, so i don't think it's the lag we're just shy ;) 3=0 smiley ^ * Fare/#Tunes posted a /. comment. Sorry http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/01/13/1029206&threshold=3&commentsort=0&mode=nested&cid=167 my LAN is going to be shut down in approximately 5 mins so let's get things clear tmp: you can join the Tunes members if you like i'd to you'd to? yip yip? yes, yeah, ja, hai, si excuse my bad english... well, so "I would fucking like to contribute" understood? tmp: well, fill in the members form, read the collaboration page, send mail with login/(initial)passwd/real name/contact information (latter is optional) I'll create an account Fare: any particular reason? all on the tunes.org web page, right? hcf: because I'm nut tmp: yup 03:00pm -:- SignOff tmp: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tmp[212.68.72.98]) I seem to have focus problems, these times I can't focus 03:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp101.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250137.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Read error to eihrul[usr5-ppp101.lvdi.net]: EOF from client) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp101.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pyro[cci-209150250137.clarityconnect.net]) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250177.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey 04:20pm pyro!!! -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes 04:30pm how are ya? uhh i just got the weirdest email about brix www.qzx.com/email.txt like? haha Hey, I received mail about fwprc! fwprc? is there something on the brix pages that sounds like i know what a retail sales report is? abi: fwprc? hmmm... fwprc is at http://tunes.org/~fare/files/fwprc/ air: well, your pages are in english, so you have some probability of knowing what retail sales reports are -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-212-33.s541.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 04:40pm aren't englishmen a people of traders? 04:50pm heh 05:00pm what? -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-288.ici.net] has joined #tunes Hey all hey Man, everyone congradulate me * Fare/#Tunes congradulates Downix now, what for? om 05:10pm ditto that's the first time I congradulate anyone. tell me you have $15,000,000 and are ready to go into business! Downix: when is your IPO? * Downix/#tunes laughs not IPO, yet But we've just got a product to sell Right time to buy shares, then Downix: the PA-RISC chipset? Fare: Right how does it compare to existing HP chipsets? AWESOME! send text send text! isn't PA-RISC dead, since HP goes IA-64? Plus another chipset that's CPU independent another chipset? Fare: Nope, HP's said that PA-RISC is continuing past IA-64 Yes the company is licencing 2 different chipsets to us Ahem. I thought they went bankrupt? Fare: HP? Or the other one? I ment the new owners IA-64 has almost no support left. SGI has said they're contiunuing MIPS till 2006 at least, and HP is saying PA-RISC will continue till at least 2004 But anyways, we've now got something we can sell Give us time tillEddas is done that's all well and good but the problem is *marketing* I really like those chips alot but it is crucial, for their survival, that the market be expanded. I want to see PA risc/MIPS machines right next to the celerons at cosco... Die IA-64, Die! ditto AlonzoTG: Well, trust me Intel made its business under the proprietary software market yepers. Anyways, got to split free software will kill Intel's dominance. * Downix/#tunes waves -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] We are BitchX of Borg. You will be assimilated. Using mIRC is futile.) I keep Dow, ATG get nix what ever will I do with all my old DOS games? Fare: make me an OS that is EASIER than DOS that runs on the mips (whatever) platform and I'll buy. ATG: you run them in an emulator, just like I run my apple2 games! =\ yeah, and I guess the newer games are okay too because they'll be native... alrite.... now about that OS that is as easy as DOS.... 05:20pm -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) linux is easier than dos AlonzoTG: run a bochs over Linux/MIPS * AlonzoTG/#tunes works air over with a 2x4 bochs = ???? bochs? bochs is a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win32, un*x, beos, mac, os/2 and amiga okay. that solves that now about LINUX Linux is the ultimate evil. It is soo kludgy it makes me want to cry... that just cuz yer the ultimate braindead I tried to install a gnu distribution on my PC and 900 mb wasn't enough for it.