IRC log started Fri Mar  3 00:00:00 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0303
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<nate37_> you fallen asleep?
12:10am
<nate37_> guess so.
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<nate37_> hey.
<nate37_> um... so what is a arrow?
<nate37_> you said it was like a byte... but what the difference?
12:20am
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<future> hey
<nate37_> hello.
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12:50am
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<nate37> hello.
02:40am
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<smoke> what does destructuring mean in a common lisp environment?
05:40am
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<smoke_> hello all
07:50am
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<Fare> smoke: like, transforming a struct with two fields into a list of the values of the fields?
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10:00am
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* Fufie/#tunes yaaawns
<eihrul> eh
<eihrul> ?
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<Fufie> I am tired.. long day
<eihrul> me too
<eihrul> but i also am dehydrated :P
<Fufie> that's not good.. go and buy some coke
<eihrul> afaik, i've been told coke dehydrates you even more
<Fufie> drink cocoa then
<eihrul> rmmm, have none
02:50pm
<Fufie> sheesh.. I am turning back to the daily rhythm that common people have.. it's 12 and I am dead tired
<eihrul> 12 AM?
<Fufie> 12pm I guess
<Fufie> I usually go to bed at 3am
<eihrul> eh... AM starts at 12, no? :P
<eihrul> given 11:59 PM
<eihrul> would be way simpler if they just renamed the 12th hour to the 0th hour
<eihrul> but i guess laymen can't properly handle the number 0 :)
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03:00pm
<Fufie> heh
<Fufie> we don't use am/pm a lot in Norway... we use the 24-hour clock instead
<eihrul> ah
<Fufie> so it's 00:06 here
<eihrul> the US is backwards...
<eihrul> took us 200 years to get rid of slavery... and it'll take us 300 years to get rid of the english system of measurements and the 12 hour clock
<Fufie> even the english are changing to continental style measurements
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> though, even the 24 hour clock is flawed
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<Fufie> yeah?
<eihrul> yeah, look at leap years :P
<Fufie> lol
<rares> leap seconds too
<eihrul> probably is, there's about 24 + (1 / 60) hours in a day
<eihrul> er problem is :)
<eihrul> or thereabouts
<rares> it's the education system nuff said
<Fufie> I actually think it's a good thing that everything is not so bloody precise
<rares> micropaymentys
<rares> payperclick
<eihrul> Fufie: why? what about the poor people who must suffer february 29?
<Fufie> pardon?
<Fufie> do poor people suffer?
<eihrul> not monetary poorness :)
<rares> somehow neither of the last 4 lines dinot come out right
<Fufie> you're thinking of the people with bithday on the 29th of feb.?
<rares> neither did the last linre
<eihrul> and... even worse is that our months have variable numbers of days :)
<Fufie> birthday
<rares> neither that one either
<eihrul> Fufie: among others!
<Fufie> people are not precise
<eihrul> what about people who die on february 29th?
<Fufie> putting us into a system with painful precisiion and regularity is bad
<eihrul> Fufie: eh, afaik, decisions about the number of days in a month were made via superstition that's way old
<rares> yes Fufie's right
<eihrul> no....
<eihrul> it's really hard to find what month it actually is
<eihrul> given the Nth day in the year :)
<Fufie> does it matter?
<eihrul> sure! :P
03:10pm
* Fufie/#tunes doesn't wear a watch.. he won't be controlled by the clock
* eihrul/#tunes doesn't either.
<eihrul> but if i occasionally have to deal with it
<eihrul> it may as well be regular
<rares> Communism:  To send a message you had to not only include postage but pay to have you mail opened per inspection site.  Wire money?  Heck what's the point it would get there faster if you walked in the opposite direction.
<Fufie> once you actually write correct time functions and get it all worked out.. some politicians will change daylight saving.. and things are screwed again.. ;)
<eihrul> yes
<rares> time is an illusion space is curved cuz it's curved
<eihrul> but just because they have their calendar
<eihrul> doesn't mean i can't have mine!
<rares> chinese have theirs
<Fufie> the chinese are one big lump.. like the impossibly big set
<eihrul> Fufie: and if you want imprecision... we can give each day as a fractional value represented in floating point (0.6667)
<Fufie> there is more than one billion of them
<Fufie> and only four million norwegians...
<Fufie> europe+north-america+russia is not even close to a billion
<rares> why does the orient have earthquakes
<Fufie> rares: to shake things up ;)
<rares> no because all of the have sex at the same time as proscribed by law
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<Fufie> counting the chinese population must be impossible.. several thousand probably get born and die every second
<Fufie> s/second/minute/
<rares> lol
<rares> Fufie 300Million in the us
<rares> Europe 600Million
<beholder> 30 Mill in Canada... not a whole lot
<Fufie> 600 million including russia
<rares> Why do you think china is cared
<rares> scared
<rares> even
<rares> you know what the problem is
<Fufie> lack of south park episodes broadcasted to the chinese population?
<rares> you'd expect somewhere the whole chinese economy to fall apart from all the abuse
<rares> broadcasted nah not enough told as bed time stories
<Fufie> do you think the chinese know who monica lewinsky is? :)
<rares> yes
<Fufie> cool :)
<rares> they know she is the devil incarnate and Clinton is the pawn in her grasp
<Fufie> lewinsky is the utmost and best example that americans have no taste ;)
<rares> check out Charles and Camilla... she's older than him
<Fufie> we knew the english had no taste :)
03:20pm
<rares> I think the opposite he's got a real relationship
<Fufie> do I need to mantion 'english cuisine'? :)
<Fufie> mention
<rares> granted the whole republic race needs to be spanked after every meal by a promiscous relative
<Fufie> fish'n chips, worchester sauce and pudding
<rares> yes the roots of Brilliant Brittish Black Comedy
<Fufie> ack.. adding 4k text to the databse takes 300 msec :(
<rares> I'm going to make a 5k web page that infringes on both the 1-click patent and the affiliate program patent :)
<Fufie> that's nice
<rares> it's a contest
<Fufie> put a wheel on the page as well.. I think ibm made a mock patent on the wheel and got it in the 70s
<rares> oh cool
<eihrul> Fufie: hmm, that means patent opportunities are still open on the octagon!
03:30pm
<rares> not really
<Fufie> if you get a patent on the rectangle.. you will be rich
<eihrul> how about this:
<rares> you can't build a 3D shape out of identical shapes if there's more than 5 sides 
<eihrul> we patent all shapes that can be represented by drawing cords through a finite number of points on the radius of a circle
<rares> the electromagnetic spectrum has already been appropriated
<rares> you know some weird fuck would argue that if DeCSS should be allowed so should patents
<smoke> we should fight for the freedom to have internet for prisoners in jail, and if that's taken care of, start ignoring patents.
<smoke> another cheap solution to the worlds largest problems
<rares> we can wroite howtos on getting ppl in jail so they can fight for it
<smoke> rares: i think it's best fought from _the outside_ though :)
<rares> I'm trying..
<Fufie> letting people who commit rapes and child-molesting shouldn't really be allowed to roam the net
<rares> what they'd get so randy they'd rape someone their own age?
<Fufie> they will probably be raped by bubba in the shower.. but locking people in for running child-porn sites would be kindof meaningless if the jail is his new liberal ISP
03:40pm
<rares> well that's the point
<rares> if the lwyers wantr to make the outside world a prison
<Fufie> letting drunk drivers, crackers and pot-pushers have net in jail is ok though
<rares> I'm going to start robbing banks by covering my face in whipped cream for starters
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03:50pm
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<tcn> hey yall
04:00pm
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<Kidteck> Anyone alive?? :)
<eihrul> no
<Kidteck> lol
04:30pm
<eihrul> well? did you need something?
<Kidteck> No I guess.. does this channel ever liven up?
<eihrul> uh, why?
<eihrul> if you want to start a conversation, do so
<tcn> oh, i'm here
<tcn> reading comp.lang.forth for once :)
<Kidteck> I'm just wondering what this channel is about actually
<eihrul> reflective computing
<eihrul> what else?
* Kidteck/#tunes is interested in OS Development...
<tcn> lots of that here
<Kidteck> But not on something as large as Linux (yet..)
<eihrul> oh man...
<Kidteck> I tried ReactOS, but it doesn't work ...
<Kidteck> lol
<tcn> tell us about yours ;)
<eihrul> Linux is a hack
<eihrul> nothing to aim for...
<Kidteck> eihrul: Sounds about right for me
<Kidteck> for=to
<tcn> If it's good, it'll be small... that's what I say
* Kidteck/#tunes really likes BeOS ... it'll be open source soon enough :)
<smoke> what's to be said about ReactOS ? I thought it was a funny joke, and then i noticed positive comments on the Tunes' review site, which made me wonder..
<Kidteck> smoke: Good idea -- that's what's to be said
<Kidteck> smoke: Not too impressive yet..
<eihrul> Kidteck: operating systems are so 1970s man :P
<Kidteck> eihrul: lol, I really want to start working on one though
<Kidteck> It's my passion
<Kidteck> :)
<Kidteck> I don't like developing applications that are reliant on something else...
<smoke> oh no not yet ANOTHER ANOTHER os
<smoke> :)
<Kidteck> nono
<Kidteck> I want to work on one that's early in development
<Kidteck> Like ReactOS
<eihrul> Kidteck: shrug, lot of research that goes into them
<Kidteck> I can't do anything along the lines of a bootloader, no ASM
<Kidteck> eihrul: I can imagine
<smoke> kidteck: what about Tunes or The Hurd ?
<eihrul> though if you're looking for one then perhaps try Dolphin :) (plug)
<eihrul> smoke: tunes is vapour-ware
<smoke> should i take ReactOS serious then? It really made me laugh.
<eihrul> the hurd is just, umm, cruft....
<Kidteck> smoke: ReactOS is a serious project.
* eihrul/#tunes laughs.
<smoke> kidteck: can't be. i still think it's a hoax pulled by MS 
<eihrul> yes... freedows has been vapour-ware almost longer than tunes
04:40pm
<Kidteck> smoke: I dobut it... MS wouldn't touch open source with a 10 foot poll
<smoke> kidteck: j/k
<Kidteck> :)
<eihrul> Kidteck: no... think of it... a project, that never gets anything done... it just eats up time and effort (a black-hole of productivity like irc and tunes)
<eihrul> that would be MSes style, devious tactics :)
<eihrul> it prevents competition from surfacing
<Kidteck> eihrul: There is a purpose, a goal, and stuff is getting done. It's a clone of NT that's faster, more stable, and smaller.
<smoke> kidteck: and runs the same braindead applications. i'll pass :)
* eihrul/#tunes laughs.
<eihrul> Kidteck: faster, stable, smaller are irrelevent
<Kidteck> smoke: Well that's your option, but it could be an alternative for an all-NT business that wanted NT with more stablility
<Kidteck> eihrul: Or so said MS when they wrote Windows 2000
<smoke> kidteck: stability is not only in the OS
<Kidteck> smoke: I'm aware of that
<eihrul> Kidteck: read the Tunes pages... tunes is not about performance
<smoke> kidteck: also, there are some problems with hardware support that come to mind.
<Kidteck> smoke: mhmm...
<smoke> kidteck: how would ReactOS go on to get drivers written whereas Linux doesn't?
<smoke> kidteck: think of it, it's a stupid project.
<smoke> i'm biased, aren't i ?
<Kidteck> smoke: It looks like it
<smoke> :)
<Kidteck> smoke: What are you biased towards?
<smoke> .. to the other side of reactos
<Kidteck> smoke: Which project?
<smoke> hm. i haven't made up my mind. i like what the tunes people here are dreaming of.
<Kidteck> smoke: I see...
<smoke> otoh i like doing stupid hacks in C on old fashioned hardware.
<tcn> kidteck: hey, you ever thought of learning ASM?
<Kidteck> tcn: Not really... why would I want that?
<tcn> you said you don't know it
<Kidteck> tcn: What are the benefits?
<smoke> you'll get to understand how a specific computer works better for example
<tcn> you can write bootloaders, drivers and shit like that. besides, you need to understand it if you're working on an OS or a compiler
<eihrul> tcn: even moreso if you're working on a compiler
<Kidteck> tcn: I see..
<Kidteck> tcn: ASM isn't easy
04:50pm
<tcn> eihrul: it'll give you a better "intuition" for choosing efficient techniques in an OS
<tcn> kidteck: yes it is easy!
<Kidteck> tcn: Is it?
<eihrul> tcn: yes, its very important in an OS as well
<tcn> sure.. I've never seen an easier language. it's simple, that's why.
<eihrul> because you do have to pay attention to register level details, etc
<eihrul> i'm just saying that it's more important in a compiler :)
* tcn/#tunes nods
<eihrul> tcn: forth? :)
<tcn> assembly is simpler than forth. but as you get to higher level stuff it becomes cumbersome and you need something like forth...
<Kidteck> tcn: How do you figure?
<tcn> it's like math, almost
<tcn> asm is
<eihrul> tcn: gah... how can assembly be simpler than forth? cpu architectures are so fscking convoluted :)
<eihrul> tcn: not even close :P
<eihrul> like a calculator is a better analogy
<tcn> allright
<tcn> it's just a matter of saying things like "move X to Y" and "add 2 to Y"
<eihrul> or "compare X to Y, if X equals Y, move Y into X, otherwise move Z into X" (don't you love Intel!)
<Kidteck> ah
<Kidteck> ASM is crazy
<Kidteck> Looks tough
<Kidteck> It's tons of code just to print "Hello" on the screen
<Kidteck> But is that code OS independent?
* eihrul/#tunes laughs.
<tcn> there are only about 20 basic instructions... and maybe 50 more that behave exactly the same as the first 20
<Kidteck> Or do I still have to run it on something?
<eihrul> you don't use assembly to print "Hello"
<Kidteck> lol
<Kidteck> It's an example program in an ASM book I saw
<Kidteck> The beginning
<Kidteck> :P
<eihrul> you use it to intimately interact with your processor and hardware
<tcn> it's not really that much code.. you use SUBROUTINES
<Kidteck> Whatever, back to the "Hello" thing
<eihrul> and printing "Hello" in assembly can be done in 2 lines :P
<tcn> you write a routine to print *any* text
<Kidteck> Is that OS independent or dependent?
<eihrul> uh, assembly is processor dependent
<eihrul> which is orthogonal to any specific OS
<Kidteck> orthogonal?
<eihrul> doesn't cross-cut
<Kidteck> corss-cut?
<eihrul> no intersection
<tcn> I write my core routines in assembly and write my higher-level routines in Forth, so I only need to change a few core routines to get it running on a different platform.
<Kidteck> no intersection?
* eihrul/#tunes hmms.
<Kidteck> I don't know any low level anything
<eihrul> okay... this is bad
<Kidteck> :P
<eihrul> i define a term
<eihrul> with terms you want further defined :P
<Kidteck> no intersection
<Kidteck> What do you mean?
<eihrul> no intersection wrt purpose
05:00pm
<eihrul> tcn: speaking of which... what's going on with retro3?
<tcn> eih: almost done.. a few more days of actual work..
<tcn> it's just gonna be a bootable forth, with blocks only (no filesystem), but at least it'll have an editor.
<eihrul> eek, reactos is almost more convoluted than the linux source tree
<tcn> Retro's kernel has only a dozen files
<tcn> under 50k
<Kidteck> ReactOS can't boot on my system
<tcn> (no it won't grow much)
<smoke> tcn: what's retro written in?
05:10pm
<Kidteck> hm.
<tcn> smoke: forth, with drivers and primitive functions in assembler (and the assembler is just a forth extension)
<smoke> tcn: thanks
<tcn> drivers are in assembler only for speed; it's possible write them partly or fully in Forth.
<Kidteck> What is Forth?
05:20pm
<tcn> a language
<Kidteck> Obviously
<tcn> it consists of words, numbers and 2 stacks
<Kidteck> BRB
<smoke> is automatic algorithm optimizing part of artificial intelligence, or could i look for other keywords too ?
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05:30pm
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<tcn> hey air
06:20pm
<air> hey
<tcn> what?
06:50pm
<air> what what?
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07:00pm
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<tcn> clienux is pretty cool
07:10pm
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<air> does linux support that large disk crap in m$ fdisk?
09:20pm
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<_ruiner_> greetings eihrul
<eihrul> lo
11:30pm
<_ruiner_> you're welcome to join air and myself in osdev, seeing as how nobody in here is talking
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11:40pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0304
IRC log ended Sat Mar  4 00:00:00 2000