IRC log started Mon Mar 6 00:00:25 2000 [msg(modtunes)] permlog 2000.0306.mod -:- Closing Link: modtunes[bespin.dhs.org] by asprin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for modtunes[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.ca.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.ca.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.ca.openprojects.net: No route to host -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.ca.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.ca.openprojects.net: No route to host -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.ca.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [137] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network modtunes -:- Your host is asprin.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT -:- asprin.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(1)] 100% -:- [global users on irc(1)] 100% -:- [invisible users on irc(0)] 0% -:- [ircops on irc(0)] 0% -:- [total users on irc(1)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(1)] (avg. 1 users per server) -:- [total channels created(0)] (avg. 0 users per channel) !asprin.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 8 (7 clients) !asprin.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 1 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user modtunes -:- Mode change [+iws] for user modtunes -:- JOIN activated by "modtunes #modtunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- modtunes [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #modtunes -:- [Users(#modtunes:1)] [@modtunes ] -:- Channel #modtunes was created at Mon Mar 6 14:25:46 2000 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #modtunes was synced in 6.846 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user modtunes -ChanServ(s@ChanServ)- This channel has been registered with ChanServ. -:- mode/#modtunes [-o modtunes] by ChanServ -:- water [water@tnt-9-94.tscnet.net] has joined #modtunes -:- mode/#modtunes [+o water] by ChanServ -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250172.clarityconnect.net] has joined #modtunes -:- mode/#modtunes [+v tcn] by water -:- SignOff tcn: #modtunes (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250172.clarityconnect.net]) -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250039.clarityconnect.net] has joined #modtunes modtunes.. eh? yes what about it? -:- mode/#modtunes [+v tcn] by water -:- mode/#modtunes [+mnt] by water just another channel? less crowded no, it's logged and used for moderated tunes discussion it's supposed to boost signal-to-noise ratio when really needed 07:20pm ah, that's why the +v.. giving me a voice :) which is not terribly often irc isn't a great medium for designing anything :) it depends on the people involved when tril and beh are here with me, stuff gets done slate/lisp stuff? what's beholder working on? unios oh yeah :) also akos btw, abi is not here since not needed for the kind of discussion this channel was meant for :) if we need to insert a url into the discussion we do it manually reading web pages ain't exactly real-time hm i actually have something to ask hard to read in depth, and still participate in a discussion do you see the lll as one reflective language or just any language that the hll is (re-)implemented upon via reflection? umm... not necessarily either... let me explain maybe the latter can be seen as a set of primitives k I see it as something like an exokernel and a monitor/programming interface 07:30pm the HLL need not be layered over the LLL; it could bypass the LLL *should* bypass at least part of it i don't see it that way at all what are you thinking? of course, i'm a fan of "language to the machine" to me, the lll just reflects the current implementation of the hll it represents the kind of atomic things that the hll uses for control constructs, i/o, etc but i don't see tunes as having one lll, but many, dynamically-implemented lll's dpending on the hardware, right no not just that s/hardware/platform/ even on the same platform, i see the beneficial use of several different kinds of primitives optimized for different kinds of semantics or performance directions right, especially for experimentation. I.e., paging vs. non-paging well what about forth vs tiny lisp? * water/#modtunes tries to think of a more useful example forth handles the really low-level stuff better... it makes sense to consider lisp/scheme the HLL- i disagree on forth, lisp, or both? :) "better" is just a matter of what you want out of it either er both forth might handle low-level stuff better, but what if you want a different kind of system? what if you want to manipulate state-machines in lisp in order to low-level program? you'd want both languages both doesn't make sense 07:40pm what if i really want a minimal lisp vm to do this with? on the bare hw as opposed to defined in forth? If I could only have one I'd choose Forth and add some list stuff yes *you* would hehe tunes is not your private project, and it isn't mine either i happen to like forth, actually I actually have a rationale for doing forth, then scheme, then whatever HLL although i think i prefer "until" i don't care about the rational rationale i'm sure they are excellent and true arguments, but they must have some implicit assumptions that will break well.. it's better to do both than neither simply because someone will have different assumptions well here's my take: i don't care how the hll is initially implemented because the whole point is to re-implement it on top of the lll and again and again on different lll's which is why i have completely avoided discussing lll on the tunes mlist because to me it's totally irrelevant you might as well s/forth/uK/ :) right.. you're an HLL guy ? :) i'd like to think of myself as a tunes guy, but ok i consider the lll aspect of tunes to be a library issue it's just a different way of re-compiling the compiler's interface to the machine which is part of the compiler's source code written in the hll so you see, i don't care about forth until someone writes it in the hll, which of course requires someone to define & implement the damn thing hmm i actually want the entire hw spec as tunes hll objects i don't think the web site advocates that 07:50pm this HLL is supposed to understand Forth (or something better), and LISP, and more, and translate between them all...? no not quite agreed, everything should be an object.. with the exception of maybe a few K of boot code no, even the boot code i want it all in the hll >:) in one sense i'm looking more at having a forth system written in hll that could be compiled into binary code that does the same thing as a "on the bare machine" forth implementation you can't really modify the boot code in-place.. you have to reboot, or at least stop everything and JMP to it. right but that doesn't stop you from having an object to deal with it conceptually we can't take all the 'touchiness' out of 'kernel hacking' right :) trust me, i'm working on all this stuff in slate cool yeah it's a real pain in the neck objects... shall we pad them all to be some power of 2? except objects that rarely grow huh? i don't care, that's for the compiler writers and it doesn't sound very efficient at all even squeak doesn't do that :) for speed, not space even so i've heard good things about that method; that's enough for now i'll give it a try ok sure I bet the OS you're using now does it too :) anyway, about this forth written in hll.. well forth consists of stack operations you can look at it as a way of creating abstractions over the hardware or a virtual machine itself both work fine 08:00pm are you familiar with forth 'metacompilers'? a little i guess you have to write one before it really hits you :) i guess so sorry, i have about 50 languages i keep traack of and have tried to grok yeah anyway, in a nutshell: have you tried until, btw? until? grr abi forgot i thought it was a typo :) must be a language a fellow wrote it up in a book on small languages it's a type of forth with dictionaries that are somehow more modular hmm.. i've had some discussions about that sort of thing. allowing different types of dictionaries, for example. a normal dictionary is in RAM as a list/tree/hash.. and other dictionaries can be listed as words in that dictionary, creating a hierarchy (links are possible too) http://www.forth.org/compilers.html at the bottom of the page yeah i know i think this one allows dynamic unloading/loading perhaps? right, stuff like that.. and a dictionary using an 'external' searching technique, as a filesystem. hm ok until is just a forth that uses the os features (like persistence of unloaded dictionaries) 08:10pm it's easy to use different 'dictionary engines'... we can incrementally move from a simple dictionary to a persistent object store dictionary anyway, metacompilers in a nutshell? oh yeah it's how Forth compiles Forth that's it? the host compiles/assembles the target's words, starting with the lowest level and defining the higher level words from those "host" "target"? it's not that complicated for me, host=gforth, target=retro how do you compile in forth? the usual way right? and when retro implements all the words used by the metacompiler, the host can also be retro hm ok how do you compile?... you mean, : WORD ... ; uh sure If : is the compiler, the metacompiler is T: (target compiler) i don't know WORD * water/#modtunes slaps himself duh n/m : ; hehe yeah no kidding i missed the colon anyway, I should get moving here.. i thought "word" meant a special declaration type good talking to ya k I have renewed hope for tunes :) you should have talked to me sooner ;) didn't have time :) use the mlist more i've become a bit reclusive 08:20pm are you on tunes-lll? no some activity there, after my question about the necessity of MMUs but you don't care, it's lll :) * water/#modtunes shrugs yeah pretty much i categorize it with c and all those other crappy languages the responses are encouraging that's all you'd care to know heh wow.. ashley winters, out of the blue :) a lurker speaks :) -:- SignOff tcn: #modtunes (Core dumped) 08:30pm -:- mode/#modtunes [+o hcf] by ChanServ [msg(modtunes)] newlog 2000.0307.mod IRC log ended Tue Mar 7 00:00:01 2000